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the great rebirth debate - Page 109 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:55 pm

The problem with this approach is that even if someone had attained knowledge of previous lives, and said that they had, you would still be doubtful whether they were deluded or their experience was trustworthy.

There is another method to gain confidence in the Buddha's enlightenment, by using logical inference.



Whatever anyone says, or whatever one reads in the Pāli texts or Commentaries, it is still going to be something that will remain beyond one's personal experience until and unless one can attain psychic powers, which by all accounts is very rare these days.

One can visit any hospital or farm to see birth and death taking place on a daily basis. Most of us only rarely see either event happen in front of own eyes. Still, even if one sees birth and death frequently, it takes a leap of faith to make the connection to believe in rebirth.

If you have trouble with the doctrine, then set it aside for now, and focus on what you can know in the present life — the birth and death of your own thoughts, feelings, cravings, fears, etc., and try to understand how the arise and pass away dependent on conditions.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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daverupa
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby daverupa » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:10 pm


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Fede
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby Fede » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:08 pm

"It should be no more remarkable to be born twice, than it is to be born once".

Voltaire.
I have no proof, no evidence and no mitigating circumstance.
but I'm open to the belief and possibility that I am work in progress, to be continued.

Being open minded, at times, is more of an advantage than being definitive.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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tamdrin
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby tamdrin » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:31 pm

I don't have any personal knowledge.. But I did have a Lama who told me that I had been his son, and a monk in Tibet in a previous live. The Lama didn't speak english but he kept calling me "my son" "my son".. This was a Lama who had done about 10 + years in retreat so it is possible that he had developed the clarivoyance to have seen directly.

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Nibbida
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Nibbida » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:56 am


Vossaga (Element)

Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:58 am


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Nibbida
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Nibbida » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:54 pm

Many good points Vossaga.

I'll add one more thing Liz. The thing I like about Buddhism is that it does not require a person to believe anything, ever. Yes, there is some dogma in some aspects of it, and some people actively pursue it in a seemingly dogmatic way. However, at its core, blind faith in anything is contrary to it's fundamental purpose. It encourages us to investigate for ourselves rather than take anything on authority.

"Experience has residue. This residue is called beliefs. A belief isn't bad, and it is often useful, but it is not real. Buddhism is one kind of residue on our lives. I use Buddhist terms and techniques more than others because it is explicitly set up not just to clean other kinds of residue off our lives, but also to clean itself off our lives."
--Soryu Forall Scott (a Buddhist monk)

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piotr
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby piotr » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:40 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Will
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Will » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:24 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Aloka
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Aloka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:49 pm


PeterB
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby PeterB » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:49 pm


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:23 pm

Why do people always get reborn into these arguments again and again? Yes he did teach multiple lifetimes, no he didn't.

When a new Buddhist asks a question, they don't need to be greeted with a long debate about this. It is most unbecoming for Buddhists to behave in this way.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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daverupa
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby daverupa » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:05 pm

:goodpost:

Mawkish1983
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:27 pm

Hurray, another rebirth debate thread!

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Will
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Re: Do all braches of Buddhism believe in reincarnation?

Postby Will » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:15 am

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:17 am

Is this thread part of "the great rebirth debate" ... or a separate one? I'm confused.

.

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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:41 am

Hi Aloka,

It has been assimilated (merged)...

:anjali:
Mike

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:58 am

Oh thanks Mike ! Now at last I can indulge in the urge to show off my ''intellectual grasp" !

.............. :rolleye:

meindzai
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Re: Who has verified rebirth personally?

Postby meindzai » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:55 pm

This may sound backwards, kind of like "If you believe it then you'll see it." But for me the way to "verify" rebirth was to essentially adopt the view of rebirth first, to "try it on for size," if you will, and then watch how the perception of my life was altered as a result. The result was for me, a positive one including more equanimity towards "what happens" as well as more responsibility for what I do now. "What happens" is essentially vipaka - the results of prior actions. Rather than say "why is this happening to me," or "what did I do to deserve this," or "This isn't fair" I can simply (ok not so simply) recognize that it is some sort of vipaka. Not that it's always easy or that I'm a paragon of equanimity or anything.

I haven't verified rebirth in the sense of seeing past lives directly, but I've verified that taking the view of rebirth is an effective life strategy. Having adopted it for a number of years I can't really see how to practice the eightfold path without it.

Anyway, if you want to verify it, just try it on for size for a day or week or so and see what happens. If things don't make more sense to you after that then there's no commitment.

-M

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:07 am

Ah is this thread still going lol :rofl:
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken


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