Teacher & Root Guru

[Totoro]

In another post Gregkarvanos said:

A teacher is one thing, but a root guru is a completely different deal!

When does a teacher become a root guru? Say, if a teacher decides to spend a couple of years or so to check out a disciple and vice versa, before 'accepting' him as a serious student, what will happen to change that status to 'root guru'? THanks.

[zerwe]

I am sure there are all sorts of technical answers. Some say that your root guru may be whom
you have received tantric initiation from, etc... However, the best answer I have heard/read is
that your root guru should be the one who moves your heart the most. The one who has the greatest impact
on your mind stream.
Shaun

[twonny]

Some say that your root guru may be whom
you have received tantric initiation from

zewe is right on with this. "guru" is a Sanskrit term relating to tantra, basically anybody you have received a tantric initiation, especially highest yoga tantra or someone who has introduced you to the nature of your mind should be considered a guru. A root guru is a relationship one should develop over time and relies one faith and trust in the guru from the disciples side.

regarding a teacher, the Tibetan tradition, in particular the Lam Rim describes the qualities of a spiritual friend which is the qualities a teacher should have from the point of view of sutra

This is a pretty technical explanation, and in reality it should be your own personal experience that guides you.

[Malcolm]

In another post Gregkarvanos said:

A teacher is one thing, but a root guru is a completely different deal!

When does a teacher become a root guru? Say, if a teacher decides to spend a couple of years or so to check out a disciple and vice versa, before 'accepting' him as a serious student, what will happen to change that status to 'root guru'? THanks.

According to the traditions of Sakya, Gelug and Jonang, a root guru is anyone from whom one has received the four empowerments.

In Kagyu, a root guru is someone who actually caused you to recognize the nature of your mind in a non-intellectual way.

In Dzogchen, a root guru is the person who introduces one to one's primordial state in an unmistakable way.

[Clarence]

According to the traditions of Sakya, Gelug and Jonang, a root guru is anyone from whom one has received the four empowerments.

In Kagyu, a root guru is someone who actually caused you to recognize the nature of your mind in a non-intellectual way.

In Dzogchen, a root guru is the person who introduces one to one's primordial state in an unmistakable way.

N-la,

Is there a difference between what is shown in Kagyu and Dzogchen or do they both show the same thing, only the way to get there is different?

Best, C

[Malcolm]

According to the traditions of Sakya, Gelug and Jonang, a root guru is anyone from whom one has received the four empowerments.

In Kagyu, a root guru is someone who actually caused you to recognize the nature of your mind in a non-intellectual way.

In Dzogchen, a root guru is the person who introduces one to one's primordial state in an unmistakable way.

N-la,

Is there a difference between what is shown in Kagyu and Dzogchen or do they both show the same thing, only the way to get there is different?

Best, C

You will probably get different answers, but the former is included in the latter, so there is some similarity of meaning. The terminology is very different however, and there are key differences between the two presentations that depend on their respective paths.

N

[AlexanderS]

According to the traditions of Sakya, Gelug and Jonang, a root guru is anyone from whom one has received the four empowerments.

In Kagyu, a root guru is someone who actually caused you to recognize the nature of your mind in a non-intellectual way.

In Dzogchen, a root guru is the person who introduces one to one's primordial state in an unmistakable way.

N-la,

Is there a difference between what is shown in Kagyu and Dzogchen or do they both show the same thing, only the way to get there is different?

Best, C

You will probably get different answers, but the former is included in the latter, so there is some similarity of meaning. The terminology is very different however, and there are key differences between the two presentations that depend on their respective paths.

N

Wouldn't it be necessary, to actually have formally have asked a teacher to be your root guru before it is so. I mean, that there is a formal and conscious relationship between the teacher and the student. I wouldn't want to break heavy samaya by slandering or having wrong views about my root guru without actually consciously knowing he is my root guru.

[Malcolm]

Wouldn't it be necessary, to actually have formally have asked a teacher to be your root guru before it is so. I mean, that there is a formal and conscious relationship between the teacher and the student. I wouldn't want to break heavy samaya by slandering or having wrong views about my root guru without actually consciously knowing he is my root guru.

Whenever a guru gives a major empowerment or direct introduction, there is always a possibility that one or more students will have an authentic discovery of their true state. He already accepts that some students their may discover their real nature, and that they might come to regard him or her as their root guru. That is what it means to take responsibility for giving transmission. When someone gives transmission they are doing so in order to help people become realized, to realized their own nature. When that happens, that guru becomes the root guru for that student, and from then on that student has real knowledge of their own nature. The person who removes that doubt for you is your root guru and no other. It also does not mean you realize that right away. Sometimes it may take you a little while to figure out. So there is never any need to ask formal permission from some Lama "Oh, can I consider you my root teacher"-- if they say yes, than what shall you do? If you do this, it means you do not have real knowledge of your state or that you have some doubts or are in a state of confusion. Especially if the request is based on just some sort of love-sick emotion that poses as faith (which happens a lot, and why unstable western students often leave this or that lama when the infatuation wears off). The identity of your root guru is based on your own knowledge. No one can tell you who your root guru is, not even some Lama who is acting as a guru. If some Lama declares to you "I am your root guru" before you have some real knowledge of the teachings, then be careful, especially if you have never received some sort of empowerment or direct introduction from that person. If you take a major empowerment from some guru, as I have said, according to the system of Sakya, etc., this person already is your root guru. In this system, one can therefore have as many root gurus as one has received major empowerments. Receiving the four empowerments automatically makes them your root guru. If you received sixteen major empowerments from sixteen different gurus you have sixteen root gurus. According to this system, however, there is also the concept of the karmic link root guru which resembles the Kagyu and Nyingma approach i.e. based on this guru’s instructions you have an authentic realization of the nature of your mind. So, if you are approaching this from a Kagyu and Dzogchen point of view, and you do not have real confidence in your state, then you don't have to consider anyone your root guru. Of course you still have gurus -- but when you have real conviction and knowledge then those people who have given you that conviction and knowledge are your actual root gurus. Before that time, they are just your gurus."

[AlexanderS]

Wouldn't it be necessary, to actually have formally have asked a teacher to be your root guru before it is so. I mean, that there is a formal and conscious relationship between the teacher and the student. I wouldn't want to break heavy samaya by slandering or having wrong views about my root guru without actually consciously knowing he is my root guru.

Whenever a guru gives a major empowerment or direct introduction, there is always a possibility that one or more students will have an authentic discovery of their true state. He already accepts that some students their may discover their real nature, and that they might come to regard him or her as their root guru. That is what it means to take responsibility for giving transmission. When someone gives transmission they are doing so in order to help people become realized, to realized their own nature. When that happens, that guru becomes the root guru for that student, and from then on that student has real knowledge of their own nature. The person who removes that doubt for you is your root guru and no other. It also does not mean you realize that right away. Sometimes it may take you a little while to figure out. So there is never any need to ask formal permission from some Lama "Oh, can I consider you my root teacher"-- if they say yes, than what shall you do? If you do this, it means you do not have real knowledge of your state or that you have some doubts or are in a state of confusion. Especially if the request is based on just some sort of love-sick emotion that poses as faith (which happens a lot, and why unstable western students often leave this or that lama when the infatuation wears off). The identity of your root guru is based on your own knowledge. No one can tell you who your root guru is, not even some Lama who is acting as a guru. If some Lama declares to you "I am your root guru" before you have some real knowledge of the teachings, then be careful, especially if you have never received some sort of empowerment or direct introduction from that person. If you take a major empowerment from some guru, as I have said, according to the system of Sakya, etc., this person already is your root guru. In this system, one can therefore have as many root gurus as one has received major empowerments. Receiving the four empowerments automatically makes them your root guru. If you received sixteen major empowerments from sixteen different gurus you have sixteen root gurus. According to this system, however, there is also the concept of the karmic link root guru which resembles the Kagyu and Nyingma approach i.e. based on this guru’s instructions you have an authentic realization of the nature of your mind. So, if you are approaching this from a Kagyu and Dzogchen point of view, and you do not have real confidence in your state, then you don't have to consider anyone your root guru. Of course you still have gurus -- but when you have real conviction and knowledge then those people who have given you that conviction and knowledge are your actual root gurus. Before that time, they are just your gurus."

Thank you very much for this in-depth reply

[heart]

Excellent post Namdrol!

/magnus

[conebeckham]

Yes, excellent. This should be a "sticky" response, any time the question of root guru comes up--this nails it.

[Clarence]

Thank you very much N-la. That was awesome!

[Totoro]

Thank you very very much, Namdrol-la.

[Karma Lodro Senge]

I have met countless teachers and Rinpoches. From HH Dalai Lama and HH 17th Karmapa to you name it. But I NEVER experienced what I felt like the time I first met and sat in front of Thrangu Rinpoche (my root guru). Even before either of us said a single word, I knew right then that he would be my root guru. He is also the one that ordained me.

[Yeti]

I'm not much of a practitioner. When I finally felt I had to do ngon.dro and approach the vajrayana I didn't really know who my root guru was. The teacher who gave me the practices, empowerments and instruction was highly respected, but I thought he probably wasn't my root guru as I thought I would need a root guru to be someone who understood English so I could communicate directly with them. But the more I got into ngon.dro practice, the more those preconceptions dropped away and the presence of one particular lama began to haunt me as if embedded in the practices, and that was what was essential for me. That's how I found out who it was (which encompasses other teachers as his manifestation). Just my very limited experience. May or may not be relevant.

[Wesley1982]

...

[Blue Garuda]

More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.

[Jyoti]

More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.

Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.

[humanpreta]

More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.

Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.

[humanpreta]

More than one of my Gurus has has humbly stated that all Gurus are one. Practice Guruyoga and all are included.

I have know others who tell their students that they are their Root Guru, or describe what they think portrays those qualities and let gullible followers draw the obvious conclusion.

Or one can go even deeper and state that the state of vidya is the guru, and all gurus are included within this state of vidya. These external activities between gurus and students are not more than a form of ritual that is followed by the traditions that is based on ritualistic performance and skillful means. The essence of guru-student structure is having a guru to guide the student personally, here the guru knows everything about the student, and so know exactly how to guide him directly, the student's understanding of the meaning is solely due to the teacher's guidance. However, in modern times this is not usually the case, especially due to the fact the the gurus are dealing with the masses of students, not dealing with them individually, so when a student realized the meaning, it is usually based on their own studies. The transmission, empowerment and so on, are merely a form of ritual, these are not the cause of the student's realization of the meaning. The student can say he read the book of certain writer and attained realization of the meaning, so the writer is considered his root guru, but actually this is not the case, the student is responsible for his own realization, not the writer.