Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:57 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:52 am
Posts: 260
Image
Quote:
Notes, thoughts and fragments of research on the history of Tibet
Sam's excellent insight and web sight ---> Total history of Ati Yoga here in about 4 installments through the last 5 years.

http://earlytibet.com/2011/08/03/early-dzogchen-iv/
http://earlytibet.com/2008/01/24/early-dzogchen-iii/
http://earlytibet.com/2008/01/15/early-dzogchen-ii/
http://earlytibet.com/2008/01/08/early-dzogchen-i/

http://earlytibet.com/2007/06/20/padmasambhava/
http://earlytibet.com/2007/08/27/in-search-of-the-guhyagarbha-tantra/

Image

Sam's blurb:

Quote:
The Author

I am based at the British Library, as Research Manager for the International Dunhuang Project, where I am currently involved in a 3-year project on the Tibetan Chan tradition. Previous research projects include a 5-year project on Tibetan paleography and a 3-year project on the earliest Tibetan tantric manuscripts. I also occasionally lecture at the School of Oriental and African Studies.

My PhD in Religious Studies was awarded in 2000 by the Department of Religions and Theology at the University of Manchester. The dissertation, on the Dzogchen works of the 18th-century writer Jigmé Lingpa, was published as Approaching the Great Perfection in 2003.

Since then I have worked closely with the Tibetan manuscript collections from Central Asia. My research has focused mainly on the impact of social and historical factors on key issues in Tibetan culture. These include the contemplative tradition of the Great Perfection, the tantric ritual system and its social contexts, and the development of mythical narratives of imperial Tibet. I’ve also written on the intersection between orality and literacy, and on the creation and development of the Tibetan writing system. Tibet: A History, my narrative history of Tibet, was published by Yale University Press in 2011.
:buddha1:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Posts: 682
Location: Canada
This may be fun. Worth checking out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:39 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 2808
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Interesting stuff. Leo, have you read Jacob Dalton's thesis re the dgongs pa 'dus pa'i mdo? It ties in, to some degree, with this stuff....

_________________
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:26 am
Posts: 189
Only qualm I had with Tibet A History by Sam van Schaik is that he says that Marpa actually met Naropa.

But Ronald Davidson strongly disagrees.

So I don't know what the truth is.

Not that it matters, since Marpa has genuine lineages from several masters, like Maitripa.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:52 am
Posts: 260
It is this kind of renovation of understanding of original materials in their original context that creates an unavoidable strain between traditional presentations and academic insight. But I can't help but think that this kind of warmth generate by wresting with the materials is what will re-invigorate practicing a Buddhism that come to have to struggle with it's own identity rather than just recite the inheritance. It's a good exercise in embracing the situation.

From- Lighting the Lamp: An Examination of the Structure of the Bsam gtan mig sgron Jacob Dalton and Sam van Schaik

Quote:
Given that rdzogs chen is closely associated in the Guhyagarbha tantra with the ritual moment of the culmination of perfection stage yoga, the question of what it signifies remains.

In general, the significance seems to differ little from later Great Perfection traditions: all qualities (yontan) and enlightened activities ('phrin las) - that is, the aims of the Buddhist practitioner -are complete (rdzogs) from the start (ye nas). That is to say, in another phrase that is used in the tantra far more often, everything is spontaneously present (lhun gyis grub).8 Furthermore, there is an emphasis on the transcendence of concepts in a state beyond the reach of thought (bsam gyis mi khyab). In spite of the association of rdzogs chen with these ideas, so familiar from the later Great Perfection texts, the phrase itself occurs only four times in the tantra, and is certainly not the defining term for this complex of ideas that it later became.

Certain texts preserved in the Dunhuang collections confirm that the term rdzogs chen was actually used in practice in the context of the ritual moment of consecration. 9 For example, in PT 321, a sadhana based arounda Heruka mandala, following self-consecration and the offering of the bodhicitta to the mandala of deities, the text mentions the mandala of the secret great perfection (rdzogs pa chen po gsang ba'i dkyil 'khor), which is associated with the purity of all phenomena.

7 Dalton 2004.
8 For translations of the passages reflected to here, see Germano 1994, pp. 214-215.
9 Dalton 2004. 10 PT 321, f.16r. Another manuscript, ITJ 437, a treatise on the development and perfection stages incorporating material from the Guhyasamaja tantra and the Vajramrta


:namaste:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:40 pm
Posts: 452
Elaborate on this please, I have never heard that Marpa never met Naropa.

_________________
s.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:26 am
Posts: 189
Stewart wrote:
Elaborate on this please, I have never heard that Marpa never met Naropa.



http://books.google.com/books?id=H5tdZz ... pa&f=false


Naropa is overrated anyway. Marpa did definitely meet many genuine gurus though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:39 am
Posts: 819
Location: USA
Thank you for the info, Leo! :thanks:

Leo Rivers wrote:
It is this kind of renovation of understanding of original materials in their original context that creates an unavoidable strain between traditional presentations and academic insight. But I can't help but think that this kind of warmth generate by wresting with the materials is what will re-invigorate practicing a Buddhism that come to have to struggle with it's own identity rather than just recite the inheritance. It's a good exercise in embracing the situation.


Agree... :thumbsup:

:namaste:

_________________
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:39 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 2808
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Naropa's over-rated. Ha Ha, one can read all sorts of things here at Dharma Wheel!

:thinking:

_________________
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:40 pm
Posts: 452
SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Stewart wrote:
Elaborate on this please, I have never heard that Marpa never met Naropa.



http://books.google.com/books?id=H5tdZz ... pa&f=false


Naropa is overrated anyway. Marpa did definitely meet many genuine gurus though.



What a ridiculous comment to make.

_________________
s.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Stewart wrote:
Elaborate on this please, I have never heard that Marpa never met Naropa.



In Sakya sources, it is reported that Milarepa himself never reported that Marpa had met Naropa in person. Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen expresses the opinion therefore, that Marpa indeed never met Naropa in person. Jetsun Rinpoche was born mid 12th century.The standard dates for Mila are 1052-1135.

Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen lived 1147-1216. He was teaching the Hevajra tantra by the time he was eleven. He had received Kagyu teachings from minor lineage holder from Marpa.

So the Sakyas have always maintained that Marpa never met Naropa in person, that he was a disciple only of Maitripa in fact.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:40 pm
Posts: 452
Malcolm wrote:
Stewart wrote:
Elaborate on this please, I have never heard that Marpa never met Naropa.



In Sakya sources, it is reported that Milarepa himself never reported that Marpa had met Naropa in person. Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen expresses the opinion therefore, that Marpa indeed never met Naropa in person. Jetsun Rinpoche was born mid 12th century.The standard dates for Mila are 1052-1135.

Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen lived 1147-1216. He was teaching the Hevajra tantra by the time he was eleven. He had received Kagyu teachings from minor lineage holder from Marpa.

So the Sakyas have always maintained that Marpa never met Naropa in person, that he was a disciple only of Maitripa in fact.


I had never heard that, but then again my background is Kagyu, and from what I have been told Marpa spent around 12 years or so with Naropa.

Who really knows? But very interesting indeed.



Thanks M.

_________________
s.


Last edited by catmoon on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Foul language removed


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:29 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 2808
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Anything is possible when you're talking about Tibetan Hagiographies. In particular, writers have agendas--even academics have agendas, much less adherents and promulgators of various lineages.

But in the end, Naropa is a source of great blessings, and he is known widely as the "synthesizer" (or compiler, if you like) of the most famous Tibetan Tantrayana Completion Stage system known to the wide world, and is important not merely for the Kagyupas--as well as being the source of Sakyapas Vajrayogini. He is hardly "over-rated," regardless.

_________________
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
conebeckham wrote:
Anything is possible when you're talking about Tibetan Hagiographies. In particular, writers have agendas--even academics have agendas, much less adherents and promulgators of various lineages.

But in the end, Naropa is a source of great blessings, and he is known widely as the "synthesizer" (or compiler, if you like) of the most famous Tibetan Tantrayana Completion Stage system known to the wide world, and is important not merely for the Kagyupas--as well as being the source of Sakyapas Vajrayogini. He is hardly "over-rated," regardless.



I think there is also a littel competition happening here --because the Naro Khacho teachings in Sakya are always billed as "The teaching so special even Marpa didn't get it".

M

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:59 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 2808
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Right-
Like I said, "agendas."

_________________
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:50 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
conebeckham wrote:
Naropa's over-rated. Ha Ha, one can read all sorts of things here at Dharma Wheel!

:rolleye: :lol: :coffee:

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:42 pm
Posts: 332
SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Only qualm I had with Tibet A History by Sam van Schaik is that he says that Marpa actually met Naropa.

But Ronald Davidson strongly disagrees.

So I don't know what the truth is.

Not that it matters, since Marpa has genuine lineages from several masters, like Maitripa.


I've never entirely understood why Maitripa (and Saraha) are not included in stuff like the Mahamudra lineage prayer, given they seem to be as important as Naropa and Tilopa.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:00 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 2808
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
They are included in SOME Mahamudra lineage prayers......I think you're thinking of the Dorje Chang Thungma?

_________________
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:42 pm
Posts: 332
conebeckham wrote:
They are included in SOME Mahamudra lineage prayers......I think you're thinking of the Dorje Chang Thungma?


That, and just in general when one reads a book on the Kagyu lineage for a general audience it seems like one gets the Tilo-Naro-Marpa-Mila formulation exclusively. Maybe it would be too complicated to throw in Saraha-Maitripa since they are sort of parallel to the first two - that would be my guess, at least.

I mean, I feel like I knew who Tilopa and Naropa were for a million years before I had any inkling of Saraha and Maitripa -even though they are arguably just as important.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:18 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Posts: 2808
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Don't forget Shawaripa/Savaripa!

:smile:

But we're really getting off topic here....

_________________
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Tenzin Dorje and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group