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Who is a ngagpa (in the West)?
A dude (a gal) who likes to dress up in fancy Tibetan costumes. 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Same as above plus likes to post photos of him/herself in those fancy costumes. 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
Whoever has received an empoverment into maha/anuttara yogatantra (does not preclude the above). 33%  33%  [ 9 ]
Serious lay practitioner of v-yana, who keeps samaya pure and has undergone extensive training in v-yana. 48%  48%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 27
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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:16 pm 
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SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
I'm talking about someone who just receives straight up Direct Introdution ala ChNN.

I'm pretty sure such people have sex with non-practitioners.

So would this be allowed?


Right, you still receive all samayas. There is no "samaya" free transmission.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
There is a particular 'Ngagpa' organisation which I hope nobody has the misfortune to encounter.



which is?


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:23 pm 
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SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
There is a particular 'Ngagpa' organisation which I hope nobody has the misfortune to encounter.



which is?


I'll PM but there is no way I'm fodder for a libel action. Sadly, we must be aware of such things on web forums. ;)

Actually, I won't PM as I don't know you well enough, but Google should tell you fast enough which group is full of westerners togged up in mum's dressing gowns and whose lineage seems to fade away like mist on the moors. ;)

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Last edited by Blue Garuda on Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Thats allright, I don't want to know then.


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Right, you still receive all samayas. There is no "samaya" free transmission.


Is there a brief definition of 'samaya' which applies here?

I can't imagine a stronger bond than DI.

The focus in my brush with Japanese, such as 'giri' (sp.?) was more of obligation and duty, rather than a bond.
Thus punishment was deemed to be deserved based on external judgement, rather than there simply being karma vipaka.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Right, you still receive all samayas. There is no "samaya" free transmission.


Is there a brief definition of 'samaya' which applies here?



It means that you keepgood relations with your teacher and fellow students, and you don't blab about secret practices.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Right, you still receive all samayas. There is no "samaya" free transmission.


Is there a brief definition of 'samaya' which applies here?



It means that you keepgood relations with your teacher and fellow students, and you don't blab about secret practices.


OK. That's the vernacular, but you mentioned 'all samayas' . In DI the samaya encompasses all others, so presumably breaking it also breaks all others?

In terms of the Ngagpa, is it correct to assume they all practice Dzogchen, or do the Gelug Ngagpas not do so? (I was told there was a Gelug Ngagpa ordination, but I've not managed to confirm this.)

With regard to the hair, it seems to exclude beards etc. Is there a reason for this (chakras maybe?) . I note in pics I've seen some Ngagpas have moustaches.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:

OK. That's the vernacular, but you mentioned 'all samayas' . In DI the samaya encompasses all others, so presumably breaking it also breaks all others?

In terms of the Ngagpa, is it correct to assume they all practice Dzogchen, or do the Gelug Ngagpas not do so? (I was told there was a Gelug Ngagpa ordination, but I've not managed to confirm this.)


The term sngags pa is pretty general and loose.

The probable early origin of it had to do with the fact that serious Buddhist upasakas in India typically wore white. This custom was transferred to Tibet. Because in Tibet there was no context of a wider Buddhist society, upasaka mantra practitioners came to be respected along with the monks. It was never the case that in India there was a so called "sngags pa" sangha. The sngags pa class of practitioners evolved from the circumstances of Tibetan society. So, your so called sngags pa was originally a Buddhist upasaka who practiced tantra.

Later on when the Chö tradition was evolving, alongside of this there evolved a kind of Buddhist sadhu in Tibet called a chöpa. The present day hair empowerment tradition largely is derived from chö.

These days there are many people who are told by their teachers to where stripped robes, etc., and they call themselves Ngagpas too. Also the garb of different sngag pa colleges vary -- there really isn't a set thing.

There is no sngags pa tradition in Gelug. It exists only in Nyingma. The only Ngagpas in Sakya are the Khon, and their tradition is Nyingma as well. The Kagyus don't really have ngagpas in the same way as the Nyingmapas. They have Togdens and Repas (also another kind of Buddhist sadhu). In general, the term Ngagpa has come to mean "serious tantric practitioner who is not a monk", much like its original usage. The idea that ngagpas have to follow monastic vows is a very debatable point of view --but it comes from the approach to the nine yānas found in root Anuyoga tantra, Dupa'i Do.

ChNN does not emphasize a chatechistic approach to samaya where you are behaving like a hinayāna practitioner, obsessed with the details of one's vows.

Samaya means "being together". So in this case it refers to your relatsionship with the teachings, teacher, fellow students, and ultimately all beings. If you treat other people like shit, if you are rude to them without cause, etc., then you have made mistake. Also we often do not understand when we have broken a samaya so it is pointless to obsess about the vows. There are hundreds and thousands of samayas. So, we just do Guru yoga.

M

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http://www.sakyapa.net
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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:

OK. That's the vernacular, but you mentioned 'all samayas' . In DI the samaya encompasses all others, so presumably breaking it also breaks all others?

In terms of the Ngagpa, is it correct to assume they all practice Dzogchen, or do the Gelug Ngagpas not do so? (I was told there was a Gelug Ngagpa ordination, but I've not managed to confirm this.)


The term sngags pa is pretty general and loose.

The probable early origin of it had to do with the fact that serious Buddhist upasakas in India typically wore white. This custom was transferred to Tibet. Because in Tibet there was no context of a wider Buddhist society, upasaka mantra practitioners came to be respected along with the monks. It was never the case that in India there was a so called "sngags pa" sangha. The sngags pa class of practitioners evolved from the circumstances of Tibetan society. So, your so called sngags pa was originally a Buddhist upasaka who practiced tantra.

Later on when the Chö tradition was evolving, alongside of this there evolved a kind of Buddhist sadhu in Tibet called a chöpa. The present day hair empowerment tradition largely is derived from chö.

These days there are many people who are told by their teachers to where stripped robes, etc., and they call themselves Ngagpas too. Also the garb of different sngag pa colleges vary -- there really isn't a set thing.

There is no sngags pa tradition in Gelug. It exists only in Nyingma. The only Ngagpas in Sakya are the Khon, and their tradition is Nyingma as well. The Kagyus don't really have ngagpas in the same way as the Nyingmapas. They have Togdens and Repas (also another kind of Buddhist sadhu). In general, the term Ngagpa has come to mean "serious tantric practitioner who is not a monk", much like its original usage. The idea that ngagpas have to follow monastic vows is a very debatable point of view --but it comes from the approach to the nine yānas found in root Anuyoga tantra, Dupa'i Do.

ChNN does not emphasize a chatechistic approach to samaya where you are behaving like a hinayāna practitioner, obsessed with the details of one's vows.

Samaya means "being together". So in this case it refers to your relatsionship with the teachings, teacher, fellow students, and ultimately all beings. If you treat other people like shit, if you are rude to them without cause, etc., then you have made mistake. Also we often do not understand when we have broken a samaya so it is pointless to obsess about the vows. There are hundreds and thousands of samayas. So, we just do Guru yoga.

M


I wish you would write a book of such clear guidance on aspects of practice........or several!

Those moving into Dzogchen with a background of Vajrayana would find it very useful, I'm sure. :anjali:

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Dzogchen is Vajrayana you know, at least in the Nyingma.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:36 pm 
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heart wrote:
Dzogchen is Vajrayana you know, at least in the Nyingma.

/magnus


Yes, I do know that view. To enter Dzogchen, one is not required to abandon Vajrayana. I still keep all my HYT commitments, etc. but remove the limitation by using the self-generation etc. within Dzogchen Atiyoga practice, as ChNNR teaches.

Equally, to enter Dzogchen does not require Vajrayana view as a prerequisite, if I interpret ChNNR correctly. Accordingly, Dzogchen is not Vajrayana unless you have a Vajrayana view.

I have encountered one Dzogchen teacher who does require Vajrayana Ngondro as a prerequisite for Dzogchen and DI, however - but only his version of it, which may or may not be typical of those with a Vajrayana focus rather than a Dzogchen perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
heart wrote:
Dzogchen is Vajrayana you know, at least in the Nyingma.

/magnus


Yes, I do know that view. To enter Dzogchen, one is not required to abandon Vajrayana. I still keep all my HYT commitments, etc. but remove the limitation by using the self-generation etc. within Dzogchen Atiyoga practice, as ChNNR teaches.

What does that mean?

As for the rest, come on guys, in the end Dzogchen is your primordial state, whether you think it belongs into Vajrayana or not is pretty much irrelevant when you consider that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:17 pm 
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Pero wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
heart wrote:
Dzogchen is Vajrayana you know, at least in the Nyingma.

/magnus


Yes, I do know that view. To enter Dzogchen, one is not required to abandon Vajrayana. I still keep all my HYT commitments, etc. but remove the limitation by using the self-generation etc. within Dzogchen Atiyoga practice, as ChNNR teaches.

What does that mean?


I'm amazed you are asking, since ChNNR has explained it several times recently re. Jnanadhakini and also Dark Blue Garuda. I'm not going to repeat any details of those teachings here as it would be too off-topic and maybe also break samaya. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:34 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Pero wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Yes, I do know that view. To enter Dzogchen, one is not required to abandon Vajrayana. I still keep all my HYT commitments, etc. but remove the limitation by using the self-generation etc. within Dzogchen Atiyoga practice, as ChNNR teaches.

What does that mean?


I'm amazed you are asking, since ChNNR has explained it several times recently re. Jnanadhakini and also Dark Blue Garuda. I'm not going to repeat any details of those teachings here as it would be too off-topic and maybe also break samaya. ;)

Ok I'll PM you.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:41 am 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
heart wrote:
Dzogchen is Vajrayana you know, at least in the Nyingma.

/magnus


Yes, I do know that view. To enter Dzogchen, one is not required to abandon Vajrayana. I still keep all my HYT commitments, etc. but remove the limitation by using the self-generation etc. within Dzogchen Atiyoga practice, as ChNNR teaches.

Equally, to enter Dzogchen does not require Vajrayana view as a prerequisite, if I interpret ChNNR correctly. Accordingly, Dzogchen is not Vajrayana unless you have a Vajrayana view.

I have encountered one Dzogchen teacher who does require Vajrayana Ngondro as a prerequisite for Dzogchen and DI, however - but only his version of it, which may or may not be typical of those with a Vajrayana focus rather than a Dzogchen perspective.


Well, you should follow your Guru's teachings of course. But you should know that there are many Dzogchen cycles that contain both sadhana and ngondro. If you read Tulku Urgyen's "As it is" volume 1 and 2 you will understand a little about it. So it isn't so clear cut as one might have wanted it to be. In the Nyingma tradition many of us don't do ngpondro just once either, we do it many times or every day and we always combine it with resting in the natural state. The same is true about sadhana practices. Whatever you do is supposed to be helpful for resting in the natural state or else it is of a very limited value.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:32 pm 
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heart wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:

Well, you should follow your Guru's teachings of course. But you should know that there are many Dzogchen cycles that contain both sadhana and ngondro. If you read Tulku Urgyen's "As it is" volume 1 and 2 you will understand a little about it. So it isn't so clear cut as one might have wanted it to be. In the Nyingma tradition many of us don't do ngpondro just once either, we do it many times or every day and we always combine it with resting in the natural state. The same is true about sadhana practices. Whatever you do is supposed to be helpful for resting in the natural state or else it is of a very limited value.

/magnus


Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje said this quite clearly in his Dzogchen View of Ngondro.
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, Ngondro *is* the practice of Dzogchen.

Also Patrul Rinpoche states very clearly how much both he and his vajra siblings engaged ngondro.
Terton Sogyal, Lerab Lingpa likewise details his practice activity at a tantric level.


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:48 pm 
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ngodrup wrote:

Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje said this quite clearly in his Dzogchen View of Ngondro.
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, Ngondro *is* the practice of Dzogchen.


Chogyal Rinpoche, Namkhai Norbu, says this very clearly in every retreat. If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, Guru Yoga is the practice of Dzogchen.

They are saying the same thing -- way of proceeding is a little different.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:13 pm 
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The thread is about defining Ngagpa, not Ngondro.

As Heart (Magnus) said, he is foll0wing the teaching of his Guru and I am following mine.

Quoting a string of other Gurus is a fairly obvious adverse criticism. otherwise, why do it - do statistics define who is 'right'?

I completed Ngondro twice in the Gelugpa and now am not at all surprised, being old, that some Gurus I met subsequently made it clear that their Ngondro was superior and available, at a price. It was always dressed up as a world peace temple donation etc etc.

I have seen several posts on different threads about this and whilst I am not naming names I can't help thinking that some people are simply posting because they feel defensive and possibly offended that some regard DI as the start, rather than Ngondro.

Becoming a Ngagpa may or may not require a ritual ordination, but I think the discussion of Ngondro is pretty much off-topic as it does not define who is or is not a Ngagpa.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:18 pm 
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This thread is funny.

Just practise! No need to argue about ngondro or DI or whatever, just do *something*, find realization and then one's life has a purpose no?

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:30 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
ngodrup wrote:

Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje said this quite clearly in his Dzogchen View of Ngondro.
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, Ngondro *is* the practice of Dzogchen.


Chogyal Rinpoche, Namkhai Norbu, says this very clearly in every retreat. If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, Guru Yoga is the practice of Dzogchen.

They are saying the same thing -- way of proceeding is a little different.


This is true, good point.

/magnus

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