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Who is a ngagpa (in the West)?
A dude (a gal) who likes to dress up in fancy Tibetan costumes. 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Same as above plus likes to post photos of him/herself in those fancy costumes. 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
Whoever has received an empoverment into maha/anuttara yogatantra (does not preclude the above). 33%  33%  [ 9 ]
Serious lay practitioner of v-yana, who keeps samaya pure and has undergone extensive training in v-yana. 48%  48%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 27
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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:

Yes, sure. You know any such community?

/magnus


I don't mean like place with a gate and land, I mean a society of practitioners who live near each other.


which could have a gate...and be on some land somewhere <evil grin>

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
byamspa wrote:
*shrug*. I was told to wear mine in practice situations, so i try to do that as practical. If yours was causing problems, I can see that it would be just as practical to put it aside too.

It might slightly dharma-psycho-somatic or something, but i think it helps me focus on what im doing when i wear it.


I merely keep my hair long. You would just think I was some hippy. I don't wear any religion clothing of any kind. It is not necessary for me.


we all do what we gotta do. i have my instructions that i follow to the best of my ability.

the rest is just distraction.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:08 pm 
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byamspa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
byamspa wrote:
*shrug*. I was told to wear mine in practice situations, so i try to do that as practical. If yours was causing problems, I can see that it would be just as practical to put it aside too.

It might slightly dharma-psycho-somatic or something, but i think it helps me focus on what im doing when i wear it.


I merely keep my hair long. You would just think I was some hippy. I don't wear any religion clothing of any kind. It is not necessary for me.


we all do what we gotta do. i have my instructions that i follow to the best of my ability.
.


Of course. Sometimes if it is cold, I might use a blanket. Then I kind of look like a fat blond guy wearing a native blanket.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:

Yes, sure. You know any such community?

/magnus


I don't mean like place with a gate and land, I mean a society of practitioners who live near each other.


Me too.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:

Of course. Sometimes if it is cold, I might use a blanket. Then I kind of look like a fat blond guy wearing a native blanket.


fat blond and hairy guy wearing a native blanket or the fat, blond hippie in the poncho :smile:

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Malcolm's point that a real ngakpa is someone who has real power over a mantra is well taken. Anyone can call him- or herself a ngakpa/ngakmo and wear ngakpa robes, but if they do not have power over at least one mantra, that title is a hollow label. Lama Dawa Choddak is a well-known ngakpa Lama (of the Dudjom Tersar & Chang Ter lineages) now living in Lansing Iowa. Although most of His students practice the Dudjom Tersar, He has a group of students (Dudjom Tersar or not) who are doing a graduated series of retreats on the Vajra Armor mantra correlated with the five elements as well as the stages of practice from Mahayoga to Yang Ti. In order to graduate from one level to the next, one has to demonstrate in physical form that one has accomplished a certain level of power over the element at hand. These tests are quite precise in nature, objective in their judgement (as much as anything is objective), and it typically takes multiple retreats to pass each level. This is both humbling (when one fails) but also very confidence-building (when one passes), not to mention downright magical. Different students take longer or shorter to pass each level, although there is a sort of average developing for Lama Dawa's students. Recently, six students passed Level Two correlated to Anuyoga and the fire element. Each level also confers authority to do certain types of healing practices associated with the Vajra Armor mantra.

Anyone interested in Lama Dawa's Vajra Armor course should go to: http://saraswatibhawan.org/vajra-armor-retreats/ :namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:36 pm 
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pemachophel wrote:
Malcolm's point that a real ngakpa is someone who has real power over a mantra is well taken. Anyone can call him- or herself a ngakpa/ngakmo and wear ngakpa robes, but if they do not have power over at least one mantra, that title is a hollow label. Lama Dawa Choddak is a well-known ngakpa Lama (of the Dudjom Tersar & Chang Ter lineages) now living in Lansing Iowa. Although most of His students practice the Dudjom Tersar, He has a group of students (Dudjom Tersar or not) who are doing a graduated series of retreats on the Vajra Armor mantra correlated with the five elements as well as the stages of practice from Mahayoga to Yang Ti. In order to graduate from one level to the next, one has to demonstrate in physical form that one has accomplished a certain level of power over the element at hand. These tests are quite precise in nature, objective in their judgement (as much as anything is objective), and it typically takes multiple retreats to pass each level. This is both humbling (when one fails) but also very confidence-building (when one passes), not to mention downright magical. Different students take longer or shorter to pass each level, although there is a sort of average developing for Lama Dawa's students. Recently, six students passed Level Two correlated to Anuyoga and the fire element. Each level also confers authority to do certain types of healing practices associated with the Vajra Armor mantra.

Anyone interested in Lama Dawa's Vajra Armor course should go to: http://saraswatibhawan.org/vajra-armor-retreats/ :namaste:


Friend of mine is doing this course. Its the real thing all right.

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Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Everyone who recieves an anuttarayogatantra empowerment already has the 14 root and 8 branch samayas.


M



Then its best not to take such empowerments, and just get Direct Introduction?

I know I'm changing the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:38 pm 
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SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Everyone who recieves an anuttarayogatantra empowerment already has the 14 root and 8 branch samayas.


M



Then its best not to take such empowerments, and just get Direct Introduction?



Huh?

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:39 pm 
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byamspa wrote:
Huh?



Direct Introduction has only one samaya, and is beyond the four anuttarayogatantra empowerments.


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:39 pm 
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SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Everyone who recieves an anuttarayogatantra empowerment already has the 14 root and 8 branch samayas.


M



Then its best not to take such empowerments, and just get Direct Introduction?

I know I'm changing the subject.


Also receiving direct introduction is connected with samaya. But if you are a ChNN student, you just worry about how he teaches it and don't worry abotu the rest.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Also receiving direct introduction is connected with samaya.



yes but only one, as opposed to 14 root and 8 branch samayas.


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:41 pm 
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SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Also receiving direct introduction is connected with samaya.



yes but only one, as opposed to 14 root and 8 branch samayas.


No, also these other samayas applys.

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http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
No, also these other samayas applys.


sweet jesus.

lol


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:43 pm 
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SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Also receiving direct introduction is connected with samaya.



yes but only one, as opposed to 14 root and 8 branch samayas.


Quote:
"Boundless view above, skyward in a vast and spacious lion's gaze.
Conduct earthbound, caring and precise."

Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches


im not sure what you are exactly arguing, ssj3gogeta, but conduct is important, view as vast as space and conduct as fine as flour. nothing is neglected.

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Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:49 pm 
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heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Of course. Sometimes if it is cold, I might use a blanket. Then I kind of look like a fat blond guy wearing a native blanket.


fat blond and hairy guy wearing a native blanket or the fat, blond hippie in the poncho :smile:

/magnus


The poncho is more practical, it wont fall off of one like a blanket or zen might.

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Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:

Actually, each item of Ngagpa "gear" has very profound meaning and points to a realization possessed or aspired to.

And finally, one's hair is empowered as a mandala of dakinis, so it can never be cut or trimmed -- because to do so would invite a punishment by dakinis for destroying their home.

M


Hey Malcolm,
Could you share any more history or philosophies behind hair as a part of the commitments etc.?
It's very interesting stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm 
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SSJ3Gogeta wrote:
byamspa wrote:
Huh?



Direct Introduction has only one samaya, and is beyond the four anuttarayogatantra empowerments.


Normally the Dzogchen samayas are enumerated as the 27 general samayas and the 4 exceptional samayas. But you are probably talking about a practice commitment.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:04 pm 
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I'm talking about someone who just receives straight up Direct Introdution ala ChNN.

I'm pretty sure such people have sex with non-practitioners.

So would this be allowed?


Last edited by SSJ3Gogeta on Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:08 pm 
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heart wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
heart wrote:

It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus


There is often formal ordination based on tantric samayas. ;)


I am just telling you what my Guru told me and how I gave me my Ngakpa vows, I am not really arguing. In general I would be a little careful with nyingma.com.

/magnus


Personally, I'm careful with all of them, magnus. That one just came up on Google.

It's sad, but one encounters so many sharks in robes - maroon, saffron and white. One recently tried to sell me his Dzogchen Ngondro and a follow-up retreat. Seems the line taken is: 'my way or the highway', other schools or gurus are not as good, and the Dalai Lama tells me I'm wonderful. As soon as the 'I'm your saviour' bullshit starts, I leave or keep a respectful distance away from their cults, sorry sanghas.

Malcolm - very interesting, thanks. I note ChNNR strongly emphasises mastery of each mantra of the practices he teaches in retreats, even if we only master one.

So many lamas just sell one empowerment after another, level upon level, commitment piled upon commitment - and money piled upon money.

Then they let their students pyramid sell for them, given a territory to deliver their own empowerments - just like buying a coffee house franchise. Shameful.
Why the Trading Standards authorities don't close cults down defies logic. They'll prosecute someone selling fake handbags but ignore an organisation which messes up people's minds. Isn't lying to sell unobtainable salvation as bad as selling a fake Rolex?

The above ARE negative comments on the Business of Buddhism. There is a particular 'Ngagpa' organisation which I hope nobody has the misfortune to encounter.

There, I feel much better now! LOL :)

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