Who is ngagpa?

[dzoki]

Not long ago I created a facebook account for myself and was surprised to find how many there are Western ngagpas (mainly people interested in ngagpa clothing?) and Lamas online. What do you think is the standard for the people in the west who claim to be ngagpas? Are they for reals?

[byamspa]

They would be as real as anyone else.

Do all monks maintain the highest standards of their robes, or are they more a subset of humanity as a whole? Could the same not be said of a group of ngakpas?

So to answer this question, they would be all of those categories. Perhaps by making such a connection to the teachings, there will be eventual great benefit for all categories, and eventually for all beings.

At least one could hope that.

[Pero]

Isn't it none of the above? I mean I guess you could say Nyingma Vajrayana practitioners in general are sort of ngagpa's but I thought a real ngagpa was something very specific.

[ngodrup]

Seems there's another category, the ngakpa who is ordained as such. At least this exists in the Nyingma.

I think its going to be a case by case analysis when talking about ngakpas who also happen to be western--
just the same as it is with those ngakpas from traditionally Buddhist countries. On top of that there are
various lineages of ngakpas and their style of practice varies.

Quite a few are practitioners of Dudjom Tersar, or Longchen Nyingtik, or Chang Ter; but then there are
dratsangs that practice several lineages and follow distinct traditions.

[Blue Garuda]

The Ngagpa or Ngakpa are known as the 'White Sangha' because of the white robes they wear. These Lamas follow virtually the same code of conduct as the monastics but are not celibate and are sometimes married and have children.

The Nyingma school is best known for having Ngagpa Lamas but I believe other sects do have this type of ordination as well.

There is one western organisation whose lineage is questionable and whose members tend to look like they've raided a kids dressing-up box.

It is a form of ordination I have considered but I am not prepared to undertake their version of Ngondro etc. and line some Lama's pockets, as ordination is a matter of vows and not a matter of paying megabucks for courses.

Anyway, I'm already a Reverend of the Universal Life Church of California and that is certainly as valid as what is offered by some of these 'Ngagpa' groups.

[Josef]

Real ngagpas are going to be the ones who preserve and transmit the essential teachings in our society.
This is what makes the phonies so dangerous.

[heart]

I just recently gave up using my zen in public because of the amount of shit you get wearing it. It is a relief I must say. Anyway, it is not about clothes.

/magnus

[heart]

Seems there's another category, the ngakpa who is ordained as such. At least this exists in the Nyingma.

I think its going to be a case by case analysis when talking about ngakpas who also happen to be western--
just the same as it is with those ngakpas from traditionally Buddhist countries. On top of that there are
various lineages of ngakpas and their style of practice varies.

Quite a few are practitioners of Dudjom Tersar, or Longchen Nyingtik, or Chang Ter; but then there are
dratsangs that practice several lineages and follow distinct traditions.

It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus

[Blue Garuda]

Seems there's another category, the ngakpa who is ordained as such. At least this exists in the Nyingma.

I think its going to be a case by case analysis when talking about ngakpas who also happen to be western--
just the same as it is with those ngakpas from traditionally Buddhist countries. On top of that there are
various lineages of ngakpas and their style of practice varies.

Quite a few are practitioners of Dudjom Tersar, or Longchen Nyingtik, or Chang Ter; but then there are
dratsangs that practice several lineages and follow distinct traditions.

It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus

There is often formal ordination based on tantric samayas.

There is a way of becoming a ngagpa through taking Tantric Vows in the process of empowerments attached to certain sadhanas, which is what I assume you mean. Here's a summary I found:

''For these reasons there are many renderings of the dam-tshig bcu-bzhi according to different lineages of transmission and these are subject to countless interpretations depending on the teacher, the student and his/her stage of developoment and other circumstances.

Although the avoidance of the fourteen root downfalls are the 'defining' vows of all ngakmos and ngakpas, how they are received also varies between traditions, lineages and teachers. Some, like Karma Rejung Lama , or some students of HH Penor Rinpoche, clearly receive a specific ngakphang ordination within which the vows associated with the 14 Root Downfalls are the centrepiece. Others, though, receive their commitments through the damtsigs associated with the receiving and practice of sadhanas but without a formal rite of passage into the ngakphang.''

http://www.nyingma.com/artman/publish/c ... x_35.shtml

[Malcolm]

A real sngags pa (mantrika) is someone whose mantras actually work.

As such, they are the Tibetan equivalent of brahmins, and often belong to family lineages. Like traditional brahmins they wear white, have long hair, are married and are responsible for the ritual life of their communities.

[heart]

It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus

There is often formal ordination based on tantric samayas.

I am just telling you what my Guru told me and how I gave me my Ngakpa vows, I am not really arguing. In general I would be a little careful with nyingma.com.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

Seems there's another category, the ngakpa who is ordained as such. At least this exists in the Nyingma.

I think its going to be a case by case analysis when talking about ngakpas who also happen to be western--
just the same as it is with those ngakpas from traditionally Buddhist countries. On top of that there are
various lineages of ngakpas and their style of practice varies.

Quite a few are practitioners of Dudjom Tersar, or Longchen Nyingtik, or Chang Ter; but then there are
dratsangs that practice several lineages and follow distinct traditions.

It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus

There is often formal ordination based on tantric samayas.l

Sort of -- this is a kind of a Ngagpa by fiat sort of thing. It has nothing to do with a real sngags pa empowerment which is called a skra dbang, a hair empowerment.

If you are a real sngags pa then you receive the hair empowerment; and the most common tradition these days is Dudjom Tersar.

In point of fact that hair empowerment is intimately conncted with the uncontrived conduct of a Dzogchen practitioner.

Everyone who recieves an anuttarayogatantra empowerment already has the 14 root and 8 branch samayas. Recieving them again in a special cermenony along with a Zentra is just sort of a formality.

Actually, each item of Ngagpa "gear" has very profound meaning and points to a realization possessed or aspired to.

And finally, one's hair is empowered as a mandala of dakinis, so it can never be cut or trimmed -- because to do so would invite a punishment by dakinis for destroying their home.

M

[heart]

A real sngags pa (mantrika) is someone whose mantras actually work.

As such, they are the Tibetan equivalent of brahmins, and often belong to family lineages. Like traditional brahmins they wear white, have long hair, are married and are responsible for the ritual life of their communities.

Yes, indeed. My Guru also said several times said that we should be able to show "some result from our practice" if we dress like that. Even tough I am a Ngakpa I have doubts about what Ngakpas could or should be here in the west. The picture you paint here Malcolm would certainly only work in a Buddhist society.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

A real sngags pa (mantrika) is someone whose mantras actually work.

As such, they are the Tibetan equivalent of brahmins, and often belong to family lineages. Like traditional brahmins they wear white, have long hair, are married and are responsible for the ritual life of their communities.

Yes, indeed. My Guru also said several times said that we should be able to show "some result from our practice" if we dress like that. Even tough I am a Ngakpa I have doubts about what Ngakpas could or should be here in the west. The picture you paint here Malcolm would certainly only work in a Buddhist society.

/magnus

Well, within a community of practitioners it would work just fine.

[heart]

A real sngags pa (mantrika) is someone whose mantras actually work.

As such, they are the Tibetan equivalent of brahmins, and often belong to family lineages. Like traditional brahmins they wear white, have long hair, are married and are responsible for the ritual life of their communities.

Yes, indeed. My Guru also said several times said that we should be able to show "some result from our practice" if we dress like that. Even tough I am a Ngakpa I have doubts about what Ngakpas could or should be here in the west. The picture you paint here Malcolm would certainly only work in a Buddhist society.

/magnus

Well, within a community of practitioners it would work just fine.

Yes, sure. You know any such community?

/magnus

[byamspa]

I just recently gave up using my zen in public because of the amount of shit you get wearing it. It is a relief I must say. Anyway, it is not about clothes.

/magnus

Which is why mine only comes out among other dharma folks. I would never wear it in 'public'.

Its not really about the clothes, its about doing whats best for one's practice so that practices' goal can be attained.

[heart]

I just recently gave up using my zen in public because of the amount of shit you get wearing it. It is a relief I must say. Anyway, it is not about clothes.

/magnus

Which is why mine only comes out among other dharma folks. I would never wear it in 'public'.

Its not really about the clothes, its about doing whats best for one's practice so that practices' goal can be attained.

"Other dharma folks" is what I mean with public.

/magnus

[byamspa]

I just recently gave up using my zen in public because of the amount of shit you get wearing it. It is a relief I must say. Anyway, it is not about clothes.

/magnus

Which is why mine only comes out among other dharma folks. I would never wear it in 'public'.

Its not really about the clothes, its about doing whats best for one's practice so that practices' goal can be attained.

"Other dharma folks" is what I mean with public.

/magnus

*shrug*. I was told to wear mine in practice situations, so i try to do that as practical. If yours was causing problems, I can see that it would be just as practical to put it aside too.

It might slightly dharma-psycho-somatic or something, but i think it helps me focus on what im doing when i wear it.

[Malcolm]

Yes, sure. You know any such community?

/magnus

I don't mean like place with a gate and land, I mean a society of practitioners who live near each other.

[Malcolm]

*shrug*. I was told to wear mine in practice situations, so i try to do that as practical. If yours was causing problems, I can see that it would be just as practical to put it aside too.

It might slightly dharma-psycho-somatic or something, but i think it helps me focus on what im doing when i wear it.

I merely keep my hair long. You would just think I was some hippy. I don't wear any religion clothing of any kind. It is not necessary for me.