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Who is a ngagpa (in the West)?
A dude (a gal) who likes to dress up in fancy Tibetan costumes. 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Same as above plus likes to post photos of him/herself in those fancy costumes. 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
Whoever has received an empoverment into maha/anuttara yogatantra (does not preclude the above). 33%  33%  [ 9 ]
Serious lay practitioner of v-yana, who keeps samaya pure and has undergone extensive training in v-yana. 48%  48%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 27
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 Post subject: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:37 pm 
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Not long ago I created a facebook account for myself and was surprised to find how many there are Western ngagpas (mainly people interested in ngagpa clothing?) and Lamas online. What do you think is the standard for the people in the west who claim to be ngagpas? Are they for reals?


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:54 pm 
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They would be as real as anyone else.

Do all monks maintain the highest standards of their robes, or are they more a subset of humanity as a whole? Could the same not be said of a group of ngakpas?

So to answer this question, they would be all of those categories. Perhaps by making such a connection to the teachings, there will be eventual great benefit for all categories, and eventually for all beings.

At least one could hope that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Isn't it none of the above? I mean I guess you could say Nyingma Vajrayana practitioners in general are sort of ngagpa's but I thought a real ngagpa was something very specific.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:10 am 
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Seems there's another category, the ngakpa who is ordained as such. At least this exists in the Nyingma.

I think its going to be a case by case analysis when talking about ngakpas who also happen to be western--
just the same as it is with those ngakpas from traditionally Buddhist countries. On top of that there are
various lineages of ngakpas and their style of practice varies.

Quite a few are practitioners of Dudjom Tersar, or Longchen Nyingtik, or Chang Ter; but then there are
dratsangs that practice several lineages and follow distinct traditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:46 am 
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The Ngagpa or Ngakpa are known as the 'White Sangha' because of the white robes they wear. These Lamas follow virtually the same code of conduct as the monastics but are not celibate and are sometimes married and have children.

The Nyingma school is best known for having Ngagpa Lamas but I believe other sects do have this type of ordination as well.

There is one western organisation whose lineage is questionable and whose members tend to look like they've raided a kids dressing-up box.

It is a form of ordination I have considered but I am not prepared to undertake their version of Ngondro etc. and line some Lama's pockets, as ordination is a matter of vows and not a matter of paying megabucks for courses.

Anyway, I'm already a Reverend of the Universal Life Church of California and that is certainly as valid as what is offered by some of these 'Ngagpa' groups. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:51 am 
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Real ngagpas are going to be the ones who preserve and transmit the essential teachings in our society.
This is what makes the phonies so dangerous.


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:33 am 
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I just recently gave up using my zen in public because of the amount of shit you get wearing it. It is a relief I must say. Anyway, it is not about clothes.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:38 am 
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ngodrup wrote:
Seems there's another category, the ngakpa who is ordained as such. At least this exists in the Nyingma.

I think its going to be a case by case analysis when talking about ngakpas who also happen to be western--
just the same as it is with those ngakpas from traditionally Buddhist countries. On top of that there are
various lineages of ngakpas and their style of practice varies.

Quite a few are practitioners of Dudjom Tersar, or Longchen Nyingtik, or Chang Ter; but then there are
dratsangs that practice several lineages and follow distinct traditions.


It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:40 pm 
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heart wrote:
ngodrup wrote:
Seems there's another category, the ngakpa who is ordained as such. At least this exists in the Nyingma.

I think its going to be a case by case analysis when talking about ngakpas who also happen to be western--
just the same as it is with those ngakpas from traditionally Buddhist countries. On top of that there are
various lineages of ngakpas and their style of practice varies.

Quite a few are practitioners of Dudjom Tersar, or Longchen Nyingtik, or Chang Ter; but then there are
dratsangs that practice several lineages and follow distinct traditions.


It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus


There is often formal ordination based on tantric samayas. ;)

There is a way of becoming a ngagpa through taking Tantric Vows in the process of empowerments attached to certain sadhanas, which is what I assume you mean. Here's a summary I found:

''For these reasons there are many renderings of the dam-tshig bcu-bzhi according to different lineages of transmission and these are subject to countless interpretations depending on the teacher, the student and his/her stage of developoment and other circumstances.

Although the avoidance of the fourteen root downfalls are the 'defining' vows of all ngakmos and ngakpas, how they are received also varies between traditions, lineages and teachers. Some, like Karma Rejung Lama , or some students of HH Penor Rinpoche, clearly receive a specific ngakphang ordination within which the vows associated with the 14 Root Downfalls are the centrepiece. Others, though, receive their commitments through the damtsigs associated with the receiving and practice of sadhanas but without a formal rite of passage into the ngakphang.''

http://www.nyingma.com/artman/publish/c ... x_35.shtml

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:03 pm 
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A real sngags pa (mantrika) is someone whose mantras actually work.

As such, they are the Tibetan equivalent of brahmins, and often belong to family lineages. Like traditional brahmins they wear white, have long hair, are married and are responsible for the ritual life of their communities.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
heart wrote:

It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus


There is often formal ordination based on tantric samayas. ;)


I am just telling you what my Guru told me and how I gave me my Ngakpa vows, I am not really arguing. In general I would be a little careful with nyingma.com.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
heart wrote:
ngodrup wrote:
Seems there's another category, the ngakpa who is ordained as such. At least this exists in the Nyingma.

I think its going to be a case by case analysis when talking about ngakpas who also happen to be western--
just the same as it is with those ngakpas from traditionally Buddhist countries. On top of that there are
various lineages of ngakpas and their style of practice varies.

Quite a few are practitioners of Dudjom Tersar, or Longchen Nyingtik, or Chang Ter; but then there are
dratsangs that practice several lineages and follow distinct traditions.


It isn't actually a ordination, like the ordination to become a monk/nun, it is an empowerment. You can call it an elaborate Samaya if you like.

/magnus


There is often formal ordination based on tantric samayas.l


Sort of -- this is a kind of a Ngagpa by fiat sort of thing. It has nothing to do with a real sngags pa empowerment which is called a skra dbang, a hair empowerment.

If you are a real sngags pa then you receive the hair empowerment; and the most common tradition these days is Dudjom Tersar.

In point of fact that hair empowerment is intimately conncted with the uncontrived conduct of a Dzogchen practitioner.

Everyone who recieves an anuttarayogatantra empowerment already has the 14 root and 8 branch samayas. Recieving them again in a special cermenony along with a Zentra is just sort of a formality.

Actually, each item of Ngagpa "gear" has very profound meaning and points to a realization possessed or aspired to.

And finally, one's hair is empowered as a mandala of dakinis, so it can never be cut or trimmed -- because to do so would invite a punishment by dakinis for destroying their home.

M

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
A real sngags pa (mantrika) is someone whose mantras actually work.

As such, they are the Tibetan equivalent of brahmins, and often belong to family lineages. Like traditional brahmins they wear white, have long hair, are married and are responsible for the ritual life of their communities.


Yes, indeed. My Guru also said several times said that we should be able to show "some result from our practice" if we dress like that. Even tough I am a Ngakpa I have doubts about what Ngakpas could or should be here in the west. The picture you paint here Malcolm would certainly only work in a Buddhist society.

/magnus

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- Longchenpa


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:26 pm 
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heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
A real sngags pa (mantrika) is someone whose mantras actually work.

As such, they are the Tibetan equivalent of brahmins, and often belong to family lineages. Like traditional brahmins they wear white, have long hair, are married and are responsible for the ritual life of their communities.


Yes, indeed. My Guru also said several times said that we should be able to show "some result from our practice" if we dress like that. Even tough I am a Ngakpa I have doubts about what Ngakpas could or should be here in the west. The picture you paint here Malcolm would certainly only work in a Buddhist society.

/magnus



Well, within a community of practitioners it would work just fine.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
A real sngags pa (mantrika) is someone whose mantras actually work.

As such, they are the Tibetan equivalent of brahmins, and often belong to family lineages. Like traditional brahmins they wear white, have long hair, are married and are responsible for the ritual life of their communities.


Yes, indeed. My Guru also said several times said that we should be able to show "some result from our practice" if we dress like that. Even tough I am a Ngakpa I have doubts about what Ngakpas could or should be here in the west. The picture you paint here Malcolm would certainly only work in a Buddhist society.

/magnus



Well, within a community of practitioners it would work just fine.


Yes, sure. You know any such community?

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:34 pm 
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heart wrote:
I just recently gave up using my zen in public because of the amount of shit you get wearing it. It is a relief I must say. Anyway, it is not about clothes.

/magnus


Which is why mine only comes out among other dharma folks. I would never wear it in 'public'.

Its not really about the clothes, its about doing whats best for one's practice so that practices' goal can be attained.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:37 pm 
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byamspa wrote:
heart wrote:
I just recently gave up using my zen in public because of the amount of shit you get wearing it. It is a relief I must say. Anyway, it is not about clothes.

/magnus


Which is why mine only comes out among other dharma folks. I would never wear it in 'public'.

Its not really about the clothes, its about doing whats best for one's practice so that practices' goal can be attained.


"Other dharma folks" is what I mean with public. :smile:

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:41 pm 
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heart wrote:
byamspa wrote:
heart wrote:
I just recently gave up using my zen in public because of the amount of shit you get wearing it. It is a relief I must say. Anyway, it is not about clothes.

/magnus


Which is why mine only comes out among other dharma folks. I would never wear it in 'public'.

Its not really about the clothes, its about doing whats best for one's practice so that practices' goal can be attained.


"Other dharma folks" is what I mean with public. :smile:

/magnus


*shrug*. I was told to wear mine in practice situations, so i try to do that as practical. If yours was causing problems, I can see that it would be just as practical to put it aside too.

It might slightly dharma-psycho-somatic or something, but i think it helps me focus on what im doing when i wear it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:43 pm 
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heart wrote:

Yes, sure. You know any such community?

/magnus


I don't mean like place with a gate and land, I mean a society of practitioners who live near each other.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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 Post subject: Re: Who is ngagpa?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:45 pm 
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byamspa wrote:
*shrug*. I was told to wear mine in practice situations, so i try to do that as practical. If yours was causing problems, I can see that it would be just as practical to put it aside too.

It might slightly dharma-psycho-somatic or something, but i think it helps me focus on what im doing when i wear it.


I merely keep my hair long. You would just think I was some hippy. I don't wear any religion clothing of any kind. It is not necessary for me.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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