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Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact? - Dhamma Wheel

Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:26 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alexei
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Alexei » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:26 am


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ground
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby ground » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:53 am

Contact necessarily entails obscured perception because it is direct perception merged with subtle papanca and feeling.


Kind regards

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:02 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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acinteyyo
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:03 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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ground
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby ground » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:09 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:53 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

pulga
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby pulga » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:29 pm


Vossaga (Element)

Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:41 pm


Vossaga (Element)

Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:25 pm

hello again

my opinion is what i have said above is irrelevent

i have just read the sutta. to me, SN 14.9 simply seems to be an unusual sutta. Bhikkhu Bodhi describes it as "bizzare"

with metta

:smile:

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daverupa
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby daverupa » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:02 pm

Bhikkhu Bodhi also mentions in his introduction to the Samyutta Nikaya that some of its Suttas are likely not original, as this Nikaya was probably the basis for proto-abhidhamma since it has to do with classifications and what not in great detail. Therefore, it is possible that Suttas such as SN 14.9 were early attempts to begin exhausting possible iterations of relationships otherwise laid out, with in this case a "bizarre" result, one that the Commentaries (again as Bodhi remarks) don't even bat an eye towards.

I suggest that this Sutta is likely proto-abhidhamma, as opposed to original. Possibly we can reconcile them by suggesting that SN 14.9 expressly describes only external diversity, diversity coming from external contacts, per the name of the Sutta - perhaps this was the line of thinking?
Last edited by daverupa on Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vossaga (Element)

Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:22 pm


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Dmytro
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Dmytro » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:03 am



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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:28 pm


PeterB
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby PeterB » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:11 pm


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:24 pm


PeterB
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby PeterB » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:41 pm

There are a limited number of options....either time is uniquely not arising Dependently, or it is arising along with everything else.

I have used this analogy before..but it is a useful one.
A common question asked of physicists is what happened before the Big Bang ?
To which the answer is of course...there was no " before" the Big Bang.
Time starts with the Big Bang...

Just so, there is no "before"...between avijja and phassa there is no time.
Time comes into being with phassa.

It is easier to experience this ( through Vipassana ) than it is to explain it conceptually.

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beeblebrox
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Re: Is contact cause of perception, or perception of contact?

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:23 pm

I think that the "time" would be saṅkhāra, a condition (or a construct, or a definition)... the second link of the paticca-samuppāda.


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