Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators
- You quoted that paragraph on previous page & conceded.
username wrote:This is not a stable line of reasoning. Nor honest as you do not mention your surrender on the last page quoting the same paragraph on the main point.
username wrote:What you will post here from now on as diversionary excuses is completely irrelevant until they ALL announce officially so. That is the point.
But I think that Tibetan Buddhism is getting a bit of a bum rap in this thread. I must say in my experience that the Theravada tradition can also be extremely sectarian. For example, I left at that time my Theravada temple with permission to study Tibetan in Dharamsala. No one complained. But when I went to Thailand for a visit, the abbot of a temple where I had stayed before told me I would have to re-take the bhikkhu ordination as I had become "Mahayana by association" if I wanted to stay for a long period of time.
The Tibetan masters I spoke to, including Lama Zopa Rinpoche and Jangtse Choje Rinpoche (the next Ganden Tripa) told me that since my novice ordination was in Tibetan Buddhism I had a good connection to the lineage. They said it was absolutely unnecessary to re-take the gelong (bhikkhu/full) ordination from a Tibetan master, since the Theravada ordination was valid from a pure ordination lineage. LZR and Jangtse Choje also told me I should participate in the Sojong/Posada with the Tibetan monks with no problem, and I should have a stable conviction that "I am a Gelong".
JKhedrup wrote:But when I went to Thailand for a visit, the abbot of a temple where I had stayed before told me I would have to re-take the bhikkhu ordination as I had become "Mahayana by association" if I wanted to stay for a long period of time.
JKhedrup wrote:HH the Dalai Lama Dharamsala Lam Rim Commentary 1998:
"Therefore Kagyupas must know the Mahamudra teaching in Sakya. The Sakyapas must know Dzogchen, they must know Kagyu. The Gelugpas must know Dzogchen, they must know Sakya and Kagyu. Such knowledge should not be learned merely for scholarship but for the sake of one's practice.
For the sake of one's practice one should receive important empowerments, get important transmissions and in this way on the one hand you will get some idea and knowledge, and at the same time be able to gain more understanding.
In my own experience, with regards to understanding the meaning of clear light as explained in the Guyyasamaja, I was able to get much inspiration from my study and understanding of Dzogchen. Likewise, certain teachings in the Gelugpa tradition, such as the explanation of the three voidnesses, such kind of understanding will be very helpful in understanding the Dzogchen or Nyingma tradition."
Jnana wrote:pueraeternus wrote:Also, the Visuddhimagga is also based off the Vimuttimagga, which is a Abhayagiri text.
Yes, the Vimuttimagga is a Sthaviravāda text, relying on the Pāli Tipiṭaka, including the Paṭisambhidāmagga and the Abhidhammapiṭaka. It was also explicitly referred to as such and used as the source text by Daśabalaśrīmitra in his Saṃskṛtāsaṃskṛtaviniścaya for the section on Sthavira teachings. A couple of modern scholars have questioned the prevailing opinion that it was composed at the Abhayagirivihāra, suggesting that it may have been composed on the mainland instead, but that is merely a tangential point.
The position of the Vimuttimagga is closer to that of the Vaibhasikas who include all 4 elements in sprastavyayayatana.
A comparison of the Dhammasangani list with that of the Vimuttimagga shows the important difference that the latter adds 3 items : "rupassa jati, vathu rupa and middha." Although the visuddhmagga attributes the heresy of middhrup to .."some" (ekaccanam matena) the tika tells us that this refers to the abhayagirivasins. Thus the inclusion of both middh-rupa in both the Chinese version and the Tibetan extracts of the Vimuttimagga is evidence that that the Vimutimagga contains classifications that were rejected by the Mahavihara but accepted by the Abhayagiri Skilling concludes that the Vimuttimagga probably came from the Abhayagiri sect. He notes p200 "these are not minor points.