Buddhism & Suicide

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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:12 am

Adumbra wrote:
That's why I'm so bored. This society that I live in would have me be content with small, easily won pleasures like a good meal, an entertaining movie, or a good screw. But I want more. I want to transcend my own finitude and become more than human; more than just some hairless primate trapped in it's own skin. If I could have one superpower, it would be shapeshifting.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
The body is finite, but the mind is infinite.
To be an infinite being trapped in a finite form; that is painful.


I'm not writing this just for you because my guess is that you couldn't care less what replies are given here. But I feel I have something to say about the things you have written and that might somehow be meaningful for someone.
My point would be that until you see amazingness in the ordinary then you have no chance of realizing 'the big thing'. Ordinary experience is so fresh it's shocking. When you look at fresh experience then it's too fast for society to get a hold of - so society can't get at your fresh experience. Experiences and awareness (regardless of the content) can't be owned. Even if they locked you away in a prison or mental hospital they still couldn't stop or imprison the freshness of experience.
Society and the truths you rightly deride are just stale concepts, but unfortunately your idea of expansion is also a stale concept. Look at fresh experience because that's the place of freedom. Society - religion-politics-philosophy-science are the stale concepts you add to your experience. Don't add anything to experience and you have moved away from conditioning. Renunciation is nothing other than not adding to experiences. You don't run away or join a group or build eco-houses - you just look at the freshness of experience without adding wishes and wants. That is if you want to be free. But my guess is that you are more interested in enlarging yourself. This isn't necessarily a criticism because I guess most of us at Dharma Wheel are interested in personal enlargement in some sense. But there is freedom. You just have to know where to look for it. Just know that freedom is 'fresh'.
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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby undefineable » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:22 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Adumbra wrote:
That's why I'm so bored. This society that I live in would have me be content with small, easily won pleasures like a good meal, an entertaining movie, or a good screw. But I want more. I want to transcend my own finitude and become more than human; more than just some hairless primate trapped in it's own skin. If I could have one superpower, it would be shapeshifting.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
The body is finite, but the mind is infinite.
To be an infinite being trapped in a finite form; that is painful.


I'm not writing this just for you because my guess is that you couldn't care less what replies are given here. But I feel I have something to say about the things you have written and that might somehow be meaningful for someone.
My point would be that until you see amazingness in the ordinary then you have no chance of realizing 'the big thing'. Ordinary experience is so fresh it's shocking. When you look at fresh experience then it's too fast for society to get a hold of - so society can't get at your fresh experience. Experiences and awareness (regardless of the content) can't be owned. Even if they locked you away in a prison or mental hospital they still couldn't stop or imprison the freshness of experience.
Society and the truths you rightly deride are just stale concepts, but unfortunately your idea of expansion is also a stale concept. Look at fresh experience because that's the place of freedom. Society - religion-politics-philosophy-science are the stale concepts you add to your experience. Don't add anything to experience and you have moved away from conditioning. Renunciation is nothing other than not adding to experiences. You don't run away or join a group or build eco-houses - you just look at the freshness of experience without adding wishes and wants. That is if you want to be free. But my guess is that you are more interested in enlarging yourself. This isn't necessarily a criticism because I guess most of us at Dharma Wheel are interested in personal enlargement in some sense. But there is freedom. You just have to know where to look for it. Just know that freedom is 'fresh'.


:good: - Re. 'shapeshifting', the deeper you delve through the layers of your experience, past specific content to the simple fact of awareness, the less need there is for 'shapeshifting' in order to realise (to any extent) the character and nature of mind. And while the contents of moment-to-moment experience vary unimaginably between, as well as within, the mindstreams of beings (to an extent likely to de-range one content with the 'stale concepts' trumpeted by 'society'), we grapple with this vastness with a lot more ease and grace after we realise how, according to Buddhism and modern science, there is no evidence (of either the existence or need) of a 'self' to contain and thereby limit such a range of experience and empathic imagination.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby martin123 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:55 pm

What about suppuku or hara-kiri?
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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby Seishin » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:18 am

martin123 wrote:What about suppuku or hara-kiri?


Noble in ancient Japan, not noble in Buddhism. :smile:

Gassho,
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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby Adumbra » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:59 am

You defintely, 100%, need somebody to love and to love you. Without a doubt! A loving sexual relationship will probably change your mind about a lot of things


I found a girl (or rather, she found me). I have to admit that she does make getting up in the morning, showering, and eating less of a chore. I still don't feel like having sex with anyone but she knows that and doesn't seem to mind; hasn't made any uncomfortable advances towards me. However, in the long run I wonder if I'm just playing more games. I flirt, and bring flowers, and I read poetry to her, but I have no goal in mind, no 'bases' to reach. I still feel like I'm playing a role. But I do enjoy the company. She's looks normal but is actually very eccentric and quirky. The fact that her parents don't know about me yet and might kill me if they found out does add an exciting element of suspense... I guess I should just be up front with them. Secret rendezvous are romantic, but being a weasel isn't in my nature.

Well, good news is I can't kill myself if at least one person in this world might miss me. That would just be selfish.
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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby jcm » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:16 am

Wow, I just discovered this forum today, and I think that I can provide you some clues.
I hope that I'm not too late, and that you are still alive.

The first point is that you are totally free to commit suicide, don't bother about karma or other things.
You have to realize that life is a long serie of lessons, and I believe that you didn't have much lessons to learn at the time you wrote.
Lessons in life can be of various orders (living, encountering, suffering).
In your case, I think that you really need to experiment with your body, so I recommend sex (enjoy sex with your partner, by giving pleasure but not seeking it) and health (listen to your body, and take care of it).

The second point is that you totally lack of meaning in your life.
I recommend you to read "Man's Search for Meaning" from Viktor Frankl. I won't describe what's in the book, but it will change your point of view about life.
Also, check youtube's videos about Viktor.

The third point is that you need to have social relationships.
The Dalai Lama explains that all humans need social relationships to flourish.
We need to collaborate, not to compete (and you seem to compete alone).

The fourth point is that you are wrong about your practice, you cannot enlighten with (only) meditation !
Zen masters become enlightened after years of mind's focusing, and an external feedback gives them the light.
Meditation will only provide you a way to focus your mind.
In fact, enlightment is easy to achieve (I did it in 2 weeks of practice), but difficult to maintain, because the mind is in the way, and we need to unlearn all our acquired conceptions.
When meditating, you master your breath, but when you stop meditating, your breath returns to its chaotic state.
Thus you want to remain in your controlled state, but this is not enlightment !
I like to describe the search process as:
1) put all your mind on your search, with all your soul
2) stop your search, forget it
3) you'll get what you searched
Some people are very stubborn and believe that effort is necessary, but effort just hinders their search.

The fifth point is that the state of "wanting to die", as strangely as it seems, is a very good news, because you could break your mind easily.
In fact, some masters simulated their death to enlighten.
Here are 2 experiences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle

And finally, as I'm a nice guy, I recommend you this book:
http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/downloads/who_am_I.pdf

Good luck !
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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby Adumbra » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:26 am

The first point is that you are totally free to commit suicide, don't bother about karma or other things.


Thank you! Not many people have the courage to say that to a suicidal person but in my opinion there isn't any better way of dealing with them. Hand them the knife and say 'Your're right. go ahead and do it!'. You see, no one who talks about commiting suicide really wants to go through with it. They're really looking for an excuse not to do it.

The first point is that you are totally free to commit suicide, don't bother about karma or other things.
You have to realize that life is a long serie of lessons, and I believe that you didn't have much lessons to learn at the time you wrote.
Lessons in life can be of various orders (living, encountering, suffering).
In your case, I think that you really need to experiment with your body, so I recommend sex (enjoy sex with your partner, by giving pleasure but not seeking it) and health (listen to your body, and take care of it).


It's funny. "Making love" as it's described in all that erotic poetry and softcore pornography really does appeal to me very much. It's just the mechanics of the act that make me want to vomit. The abhorrant appearence of the sex organs. The fact that they are the biological equivalent of a raw sewage disposal system. The fact that women bleed out of those things and that yeast grows inside of them. And lest you think I am a latent homosexual, I would like to add that though the male sex organ is slightly less repulsive in appearance, the fact that filthy ooze that smells like ammonia shoots out it makes it fully as undesirable as the vagina. Couldn't God have come up with something more elegant? That's the best he could do? Really? I think this is why I've consistently fallen in love with people who, for one reason or another, made a platonic relationship seem natural and justified. The first one was like a sister to me, knew her since I was 7, so I had a good excuse not to frak her. The second was, oddly, a boy, so being at least basically heterosexual, I couldn't frak him either. My current love interest is jailbait (such a naughty boy, I am) so I have a damn good excuse not to frak her. No, I don't think I'll be frak anyone any time soon. Maybe I can pursuade her to let me give her backrub. That's physical, and legal, and very pleasurable.

The second point is that you totally lack of meaning in your life.
I recommend you to read "Man's Search for Meaning" from Viktor Frankl. I won't describe what's in the book, but it will change your point of view about life.


“A man who becomes conscious of the responsibility he bears toward a human being who affectionately waits for him, or to an unfinished work, will never be able to throw away his life. He knows the 'why' for his existence, and will be able to bear almost any 'how.'”

That quotation has haunted me for some months now. All I really know about him was that he is a holocaust survivor. Thanks for the recommendation.

The third point is that you need to have social relationships.
The Dalai Lama explains that all humans need social relationships to flourish.
We need to collaborate, not to compete (and you seem to compete alone).


I grudgingly admit that the Lama is right about this. We're social animals, no denying it. Self-sufficient hermits are an aberration and I can't imagine that any of them are very happy. I have a few friends, but none of them would like each other (and might just hate each other). Seems like I've always been the go-between, never quite fitting into any social group. I tried becoming a Mormon once. Really nice people, the Mormons, but they tend to have very bland personalities. The problem is I live in my own world while the Mormons live in their Mormon world, the Buddhists in their Buddhist world, the Democrats in their Democrat world, the scientific materialists in their scientific materialist world, you see where I am going with this... But I have fun visiting other worlds. I just cant stay for very long before I get bored and wander off somewhere else. But it's better than being a hermit.

The fourth point is that you are wrong about your practice, you cannot enlighten with (only) meditation !
Zen masters become enlightened after years of mind's focusing, and an external feedback gives them the light.
Meditation will only provide you a way to focus your mind.


Shit.

The fifth point is that the state of "wanting to die", as strangely as it seems, is a very good news, because you could break your mind easily.
In fact, some masters simulated their death to enlighten.


I've often wished that someone would do that to me. Not kill me, but put on such a convincing show that I really believe they are going to kill me. I think I would learn alot about myself from such an experience.

And finally, as I'm a nice guy, I recommend you this book:
http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/downloads/who_am_I.pdf

Good luck !


Thanks. I'll read it. And thanks for your thoughtful response. This has actually been so much more productive than seeing a therapist and it hasn't cost me a cent.
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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:48 pm

As someone who has struggled with depression and alcoholism may I humbly suggest to consider this statement from Dr. Carl Jung - "If you are depressed, you are too high up in your mind".

Leaving aside for a moment the issue of anti-depressants (they helped me greatly when I needed them but YMMV) I advise to do something completely mindless, mundane, physical and utterly vain.

Take up stamp collecting. Or maybe knitting. Or baseball. Or have an inordinate and quite inappropriate amount of sex. Or start collecting back issues of Vogue magazine. Or become addicted to unimpressed McKayla Maroney memes or StumbleUpon. Or learn the ukelele. Or buy a hat and prance around in front of a mirror wearing it.

The gold does not come from gold it comes from excrement. Start at the bottom not at the top. Depressed people are usually highly intelligent and have conquered many mountain peaks. Just not the one they so desperately need to conquer, which is to be stupid.

:pig:
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Re: Buddhism & Suicide

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:19 pm

Some of the Japanese use to commit kamikaze in WW2 though I think that was more Shinto than Buddhism.
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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