masters of the tradition

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby RikudouSennin » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:28 am

ngodrup wrote:Pristine awareness is not a state.
There is no witness.


aha i see. :meditate:
RikudouSennin
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:55 am

RikudouSennin wrote:
ngodrup wrote:Correct. And it is very subtle, therefore easy to loose track of


so that dzogchen state is already there but it takes a master who knows they are in that state to introduce it to those who do not know?
how does it become a continuous state...practice right?
what is the diff between this state and smadhi states or jhnanas? sorry so curious. :alien:


The state is none other than the recognition of 'thusness' (chinese:真如 / sanskrit: tatatha), the 'recognition of thusness' (見性) is the meaning or view in dzogchen, this is not any different from the mahayana. Having a right teacher can cut down the time needed to arrived at the meaning of recognition, but it is not the absolute necessity, as there are different people with different level of capacity. People possessing the intellect (慧根)is capable of deciphering the meaning through the relying on the definitive scriptures of the mahayana, two the mahayana's four reliances (四依) states: 1. relying on the scripture of definitive meaning, not the scripture of non-definitive meaning; 2. relying on the teaching, not on the person, the combined meaning of these two basically implied the study of the definitive scriptures of the mahayana is sufficient, the implication of absolute reliance on another person or teacher simply violate the No.2 of the four reliances of mahayana.

Having recognise the thusness, only then one is able to apprehend the reason (理) of thusness, intially one begin with the 'thinking in concordance with the reason' (如理作意), after gaining familiarity in this way of thinking, one's sixth consciousness undergoes transformation, and accessed to the intellect in concordance with the reason (如理智), technically this is stage where the 6th and 7th consciousness become transform into wisdoms, by relying on the 'intellect in concordance with the reason', one fulfilled the No.3 of the four reliances: relying on the intellect and not the consciousness.

Samadhi states is meditative absorption, it is not a requirement for above practice.
User avatar
Jyoti
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Taiwan

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:56 am

RikudouSennin wrote: :thanks:

Am i correct in assuming the dzogchen state is not a type of nirvikalpa samadhi or samadhi state or transcendental state but our natural state of non dual awareness? so its not like some divine state where your lost to the world in meditation correct?


Perhaps closer to Sahaja Samadhi if anything, but i couldn't say definitively being that my knowledge of sahaja and it's attributed is limited, definitely not a void absorption like nirvikalpa though.
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:03 am

Jyoti no offense, but where are you learning this stuff and why is it being presented as dzogchen? You said you received transmission from ChNN I recall... And these certainly aren't his teachings, I'm just curious. I guess specifically what's the source of these notions and is that source presenting them as dzogchen? Or are you taking other teachings and applying it to what it appears dzogchen is stating and presenting your own take?
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:36 am

asunthatneversets wrote:Jyoti no offense, but where are you learning this stuff and why is it being presented as dzogchen? You said you received transmission from ChNN I recall... And these certainly aren't his teachings, I'm just curious. I guess specifically what's the source of these notions and is that source presenting them as dzogchen? Or are you taking other teachings and applying it to what it appears dzogchen is stating and presenting your own take?


As a person who studied both so it is not difficult to know the similarities. The source all contained in the chinese mahayana tripitaka, the chinese words as stated are the key to decipher the meaning from the scriptures related to this topic, you need to rely only the definitive scriptures. Having a prior knowledge of dzogchen and ch'an helps a lot in the deciphering of the meaning in the scriptures.
User avatar
Jyoti
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Taiwan

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby RikudouSennin » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:59 am

Jyoti wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:
ngodrup wrote:Correct. And it is very subtle, therefore easy to loose track of


so that dzogchen state is already there but it takes a master who knows they are in that state to introduce it to those who do not know?
how does it become a continuous state...practice right?
what is the diff between this state and smadhi states or jhnanas? sorry so curious. :alien:


The state is none other than the recognition of 'thusness' (chinese:真如 / sanskrit: tatatha), the 'recognition of thusness' (見性) is the meaning or view in dzogchen, this is not any different from the mahayana. Having a right teacher can cut down the time needed to arrived at the meaning of recognition, but it is not the absolute necessity, as there are different people with different level of capacity. People possessing the intellect (慧根)is capable of deciphering the meaning through the relying on the definitive scriptures of the mahayana, two the mahayana's four reliances (四依) states: 1. relying on the scripture of definitive meaning, not the scripture of non-definitive meaning; 2. relying on the teaching, not on the person, the combined meaning of these two basically implied the study of the definitive scriptures of the mahayana is sufficient, the implication of absolute reliance on another person or teacher simply violate the No.2 of the four reliances of mahayana.

Having recognise the thusness, only then one is able to apprehend the reason (理) of thusness, intially one begin with the 'thinking in concordance with the reason' (如理作意), after gaining familiarity in this way of thinking, one's sixth consciousness undergoes transformation, and accessed to the intellect in concordance with the reason (如理智), technically this is stage where the 6th and 7th consciousness become transform into wisdoms, by relying on the 'intellect in concordance with the reason', one fulfilled the No.3 of the four reliances: relying on the intellect and not the consciousness.

Samadhi states is meditative absorption, it is not a requirement for above practice.



Sorry i got lost in your terminology :shrug:
RikudouSennin
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby RikudouSennin » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:10 am

so recognizing and staying in rigpa is dzogchen or great perfection?
RikudouSennin
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:21 am

RikudouSennin wrote:Sorry i got lost in your terminology :shrug:


It is understandable. These mahayana contents are not meant for the lower paths, nor beginner of buddhism. Yet dzogchen teaching belong to this definitive level of the mahayana, it is understandable that proponent of dzogchen insist on having a teacher, but for the mahayana tradition of the definitive meaning, in order to approach it, it is assumed that you have learnt the basis of the buddhism, in both the hinayana and mahayana.
User avatar
Jyoti
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Taiwan

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:30 am

RikudouSennin wrote:so recognizing and staying in rigpa is dzogchen or great perfection?


The answer can be a simple yes, but both in the recognizing and staying are not so simple.
User avatar
Jyoti
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Taiwan

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:27 am

RikudouSennin wrote:so recognizing and staying in rigpa is dzogchen or great perfection?

You can't get Dzogchen from words and analysis. You get it through a type of experience that goes beyond words and analysis. So the circumstances for getting Dzogchen come down to a shared experience between student and teacher. No one says that you have to worship a teacher but the teacher knows what the experience is and that it is beyond 'thinking mind' and they introduce that to you. That's about it.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Andrew108
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:48 am

Andrew108 wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:so recognizing and staying in rigpa is dzogchen or great perfection?

You can't get Dzogchen from words and analysis. You get it through a type of experience that goes beyond words and analysis. So the circumstances for getting Dzogchen come down to a shared experience between student and teacher. No one says that you have to worship a teacher but the teacher knows what the experience is and that it is beyond 'thinking mind' and they introduce that to you. That's about it.


The view or meaning has its means of communication and this means of communication consists of words, one understand the meaning from words through analysis, the mind that don't think or analyse has no possibility to comprehend anything.
User avatar
Jyoti
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Taiwan

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:04 am

Actually no. The Direct Introduction doesn't consist of words.
One worldly example of this would be love. You don't have to reason it all out or use a lot of words, you just know deep down you are in love.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Andrew108
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:20 am

Andrew108 wrote:Actually no. The Direct Introduction doesn't consist of words.
One worldly example of this would be love. You don't have to reason it all out or use a lot of words, you just know deep down you are in love.


Actually you are saying the opposite, direct introduction is equivalent of the word initiation, the fourth initiations of the vajrayana. Those without words are the other symbolic initiations of vajrayana and these are not definitive. Also regarding love, isn't sweat words and romantic thoughts arise the feeling? Sure the feeling itself is beyond words and thoughts but it is the words and thoughts that cause it to arise.
User avatar
Jyoti
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Taiwan

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:29 am

Well then you know a lot and I must be mistaken.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Andrew108
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby heart » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:55 am

Jyoti wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
RikudouSennin wrote:so recognizing and staying in rigpa is dzogchen or great perfection?

You can't get Dzogchen from words and analysis. You get it through a type of experience that goes beyond words and analysis. So the circumstances for getting Dzogchen come down to a shared experience between student and teacher. No one says that you have to worship a teacher but the teacher knows what the experience is and that it is beyond 'thinking mind' and they introduce that to you. That's about it.


The view or meaning has its means of communication and this means of communication consists of words, one understand the meaning from words through analysis, the mind that don't think or analyse has no possibility to comprehend anything.


No, the word are just like a finger pointing to the moon Jyoti. In the moment of recognition of the natural state our mind, with all its thoughts, dissolve for a moment. Which means that this recognition is free from recognizing and recognizer.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Pero » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:05 am

RikudouSennin wrote:
Jyoti wrote:The state is none other than the recognition of 'thusness' (chinese:真如 / sanskrit: tatatha), the 'recognition of thusness' (見性) is the meaning or view in dzogchen, this is not any different from the mahayana. Having a right teacher can cut down the time needed to arrived at the meaning of recognition, but it is not the absolute necessity, as there are different people with different level of capacity. People possessing the intellect (慧根)is capable of deciphering the meaning through the relying on the definitive scriptures of the mahayana, two the mahayana's four reliances (四依) states: 1. relying on the scripture of definitive meaning, not the scripture of non-definitive meaning; 2. relying on the teaching, not on the person, the combined meaning of these two basically implied the study of the definitive scriptures of the mahayana is sufficient, the implication of absolute reliance on another person or teacher simply violate the No.2 of the four reliances of mahayana.

Having recognise the thusness, only then one is able to apprehend the reason (理) of thusness, intially one begin with the 'thinking in concordance with the reason' (如理作意), after gaining familiarity in this way of thinking, one's sixth consciousness undergoes transformation, and accessed to the intellect in concordance with the reason (如理智), technically this is stage where the 6th and 7th consciousness become transform into wisdoms, by relying on the 'intellect in concordance with the reason', one fulfilled the No.3 of the four reliances: relying on the intellect and not the consciousness.

Samadhi states is meditative absorption, it is not a requirement for above practice.


Sorry i got lost in your terminology :shrug:

Don't worry about it. It's better if you just ignore her, since her posts have nothing to do with Dzogchen and will only confuse and mislead you.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1849
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:22 am

Jyoti wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Jyoti no offense, but where are you learning this stuff and why is it being presented as dzogchen? You said you received transmission from ChNN I recall... And these certainly aren't his teachings, I'm just curious. I guess specifically what's the source of these notions and is that source presenting them as dzogchen? Or are you taking other teachings and applying it to what it appears dzogchen is stating and presenting your own take?


As a person who studied both so it is not difficult to know the similarities. The source all contained in the chinese mahayana tripitaka, the chinese words as stated are the key to decipher the meaning from the scriptures related to this topic, you need to rely only the definitive scriptures. Having a prior knowledge of dzogchen and ch'an helps a lot in the deciphering of the meaning in the scriptures.


I can't even bring myself to follow up on these responses, the other thread where you were correcting Tsele Natsok Rangdrol pretty much set the tone. Quite presumptuous. I'm sure you mean well but you're doing more harm than good answering questions here.
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby alpha » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:16 am

Jyoti wrote:
The view or meaning has its means of communication and this means of communication consists of words, one understand the meaning from words through analysis, the mind that don't think or analyse has no possibility to comprehend anything.


Have you ever heard CNNR mentioning the story of taking instructions from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche where while giving instructions he used to tap his fingers on the table quite firmly?

What do you think this is?
How is that using words to communicate the meaning?

And its a bit unfortunate that you insist in your ways when you see that your approach and the jargon you use is difficult to understand by others.I think this speaks volume of your current experience and understanding of the teaching.
AOM
alpha
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: kent

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:39 pm

heart wrote:No, the word are just like a finger pointing to the moon Jyoti. In the moment of recognition of the natural state our mind, with all its thoughts, dissolve for a moment. Which means that this recognition is free from recognizing and recognizer.

/magnus


Since the perception of thoughts is none other than dharmata, there is no anticipation of its ceasing (your term "dissolve"), even when such thoughts are of recognizing and recognizer, they are not difference than dharmata. Thus you are merely seeking a state of calm in your method. In reality, there are no different with whatever arises, and allowing thinking component to function, allowed the intellect to operate unobstructedly in concordance with the reason of thusness, this is what causes the transformation of consciousnesses into wisdoms. If one impede thought or merely remain blanked, than it is no different than the meditation of no-thought, this is certainly not dzogchen but worldly meditation.
User avatar
Jyoti
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Taiwan

Re: masters of the tradition

Postby Jyoti » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:42 pm

alpha wrote:Have you ever heard CNNR mentioning the story of taking instructions from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche where while giving instructions he used to tap his fingers on the table quite firmly?

What do you think this is?
How is that using words to communicate the meaning?

And its a bit unfortunate that you insist in your ways when you see that your approach and the jargon you use is difficult to understand by others.I think this speaks volume of your current experience and understanding of the teaching.


He is still using words to explain later no? If one using words, one can communicate the same thing.
User avatar
Jyoti
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:07 pm
Location: Taiwan

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Sönam and 17 guests

>