YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower - Dhamma Wheel

Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
adosa
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm

Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby adosa » Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:58 pm

Greetings all,

I'm not sure under which forum this topic should go so feel free to move it if necessary.

My understanding is that Stream-entry is the "lowest" Noble attainment that guarantees safe-haven from states of perdition. But what do the more learned members say about the following text? I'm not sure off hand which Sutta this came from but it seems to me that if one is a Faith-follower and/or a Dhamma-follower, and since one is assured of attaining Stream-entry prior to death, then these two attainments would also guarantee safe-haven from states of perdition. I'm sure my interpretation is flawed and that's why I ask the question. Please correct me if and where I am wrong.

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear
… The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is impermanent, changing,
becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is
called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the
plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of
doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in
the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of
stream-entry.

“One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient
degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed
course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the
worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in
hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away
without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.


So what characteristics define a Faith-follower? A Dhamma-follower? How do they differ from a Stream-enterer?

Could it be that many of the good people here are just that and at the time of death sufficient wisdom will arise and in a "flash" Stream-entry will be attained?

I ask these questions because I see the practice as akin to climbing a ladder. I'd like to review what characteristics I am lacking that still have me on the ground and not on the first rung. If I can develop a practice that is in the realm of the Faith-follower or Dhamma-follower then I can put aside the notion of Stream-entry and just practice.

Thank you in advance for the discussion.

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:59 pm

Greetings adosa,

I think your intention behind wanting to know this is very good... it is good to try to benchmark one's progress realistically against the framework established in the suttas and work to remedy the gaps between the current state and nobility.

As for you initial analysis, I see nothing wrong with that either.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby Jechbi » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:45 am


User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby cooran » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:19 am

Hellol adosa,

I think you are quoting SN 25.5 Vedana Sutta Feeling?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Read the section on Jhāna and the Attainment of Stream-entry in The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
adosa
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby adosa » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:24 pm

"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:06 am


User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby ground » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:14 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby Nyana » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:20 am


User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:15 am


rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:42 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
adosa
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby adosa » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:39 pm

Thanks for the replies. I posted this about two years ago. So what offenses are those that lead to the lower realms? Is breaking a precept one such offense? Or does it depend on the precept (i.e. killing vs. having a beer)?

Its been awhile since I reviewed this information so thanks for jogging the memory.... :|

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:30 am

Hi Adosa,

The five precepts, if broken, seem pretty serious (see below Vipaka sutta), however the results of these are not beyond our control (see next sutta, below). The best guarantee against hellish realms is of course, stream entry.

With metta

Matheesha
   
AN 8.40 PTS: A iv 247
Vipaka Sutta: Results
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2010
"Monks, the taking of life — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.

"Stealing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from stealing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the loss of one's wealth.

"Illicit sexual behavior — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from illicit sexual behavior is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to rivalry & revenge.

"Telling falsehoods — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from telling falsehoods is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to being falsely accused.

"Divisive tale-bearing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from divisive tale-bearing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the breaking of one's friendships.

"Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds.

"Frivolous chattering — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from frivolous chattering is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to words that aren't worth taking to heart.

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

See also: AN 4.111, as an example of harsh training.

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress.

"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable.[1] A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"Yes, lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in the cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink."

"Now suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"No, lord. Why is that? There being a great mass of water in the River Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink."

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in the body, [2] undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind [i.e., painful feelings can invade the mind and stay there], undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering.   A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in the body,[3] developed in virtue, developed in mind [i.e., painful feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there], developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the unlimited. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"There is the case where a certain person is thrown into jail for half a dollar (kahapana), is thrown into jail for a dollar, is thrown into jail for one hundred dollars. And there is the case where another person is not thrown into jail for half a dollar, is not thrown into jail for a dollar, is not thrown into jail for one hundred dollars. Now what sort of person is thrown into jail for half a dollar... for a dollar... for one hundred dollars? There is the case where a person is poor, of little wealth, of few possessions. This is the sort of person who is thrown into jail for half a dollar... for a dollar... for one hundred dollars. And what sort of person is not thrown into jail for half a dollar... for a dollar... for one hundred dollars? There is the case where a person is wealthy, with many belongings, many possessions. This is the sort of person who is not thrown into jail for half a dollar... for a dollar... for one hundred dollars.

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"It's just as when a goat butcher is empowered to beat or bind or slay or treat as he likes a certain person who steals a goat, but is not empowered to beat or bind or slay or treat as he likes another person who steals a goat. Now, when what sort of person has stolen a goat is the goat butcher empowered to beat him or bind him or slay him or treat him as he likes? There is the case where a person is poor, of little wealth, of few possessions. This is the sort of person who, when he has stolen a goat, the goat butcher is empowered to beat or bind or slay or treat as he likes. And when what sort of person has stolen a goat is the goat butcher not empowered to beat him or bind him or slay him or treat him as he likes? There is the case where a person is wealthy, with many belongings, many possessions; a king or a king's minister. This is the sort of person who, when he has stolen a goat, the goat butcher is not empowered to beat or bind or slay or treat as he likes. All he can do is go with his hands clasped before his heart and beg: 'Please, dear sir, give me a goat or the price of a goat.'

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress."

Notes

1.
Immeasurable concentration. See also AN 3.65.
2.
I.e., pleasant feelings can invade the mind and stay there — see MN 36.
3.
I.e., pleasant feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there.
See also: MN 86; MN 101; AN 3.33; AN 10.208.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
adosa
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby adosa » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:06 pm

Thanks Matheesha,

So I guess "incapable of committing any offenses that would lead to the lower realms" as much as anything, depends on the development of the individual. I'd have to imagine that a Dhamma-follower or a Faith-follower still, on occasion, breaks a precept but makes every effort not to.

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:34 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine