The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby pueraeternus » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:35 pm

dharmagoat wrote:Are we? What if they are better suited to working in a diner? What if working in a diner provides valuable work experience for someone aspiring to be a great chef? Anyway, why are diner chefs not to be considered great chefs?


This has nothing to do with the topic about comparing the fruits of a Buddha and the fruits of an Arhat. You are talking about what may be best for people of various dispositions. Fine if you want to start another thread and talk about it. This thread is off topic enough already.
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby dharmagoat » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:43 pm

pueraeternus wrote:This has nothing to do with the topic about comparing the fruits of a Buddha and the fruits of an Arhat. You are talking about what may be best for people of various dispositions. Fine if you want to start another thread and talk about it. This thread is off topic enough already.

I'm done. :smile:
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby pueraeternus » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:45 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:This has nothing to do with the topic about comparing the fruits of a Buddha and the fruits of an Arhat. You are talking about what may be best for people of various dispositions. Fine if you want to start another thread and talk about it. This thread is off topic enough already.

I'm done. :smile:


I may follow along if deepbluehum remains unreceptive.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:48 pm

pueraeternus wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:You talk just like Tilt and block off all other information. There is nothing more I can say to you if you refuse to even come up with a proper counter.


What you don't get is that you haven't come up with a proper counter. I mentioned Maha-moggallana who had the faculties Buddha had.


And I countered that Shariputra had those powers too - so your counter is moot.


No, they were not as well developed. Maha-moggallana's psychic powers were unmatched among the disciples.
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:49 pm

pueraeternus wrote:Obviously? What is obvious is that you do not know enough about the suttas, pick and choose those you like and come up with your pet theory (granted, you seem to have just followed whatever Tilt said and it is really his theory). Even when presented with sutric citations you don't come up with a proper counter.


This is a stupid response.
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:12 am

pueraeternus wrote:I may follow along if deepbluehum remains unreceptive.


Aside from your factual interpretations, show me in the suttas where Buddha himself teaches how his realization is superior to the Arahats.
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:25 am

deepbluehum wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
What you don't get is that you haven't come up with a proper counter. I mentioned Maha-moggallana who had the faculties Buddha had.


And I countered that Shariputra had those powers too - so your counter is moot.


No, they were not as well developed. Maha-moggallana's psychic powers were unmatched among the disciples.


First of all, Maudgalyayana's psychic powers certainly does not match the Buddha's. And you are missing the point of the Sampasadaniya Sutta - it is not about abhijnas. It's about bodhi and Shariputra clearly states that only previous and future Buddhas are a match of Shakyamuni in terms of bodhi.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:27 am

deepbluehum wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:I may follow along if deepbluehum remains unreceptive.


Aside from your factual interpretations, show me in the suttas where Buddha himself teaches how his realization is superior to the Arahats.


I don't have the exact sutta, but look at Helmuth's article about Maudgalyayana:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#notes

About the differing range of wisdom, the Buddha once said that there are questions which only he could conceive and answer, but not Sariputta; there are other questions which only Sariputta could clarify, but not Moggallana' and there are those which only Moggallana could solve, but not the other disciples (J. 483). Thus the two chief disciples were like a bridge between the supreme qualities of the Buddha and the capacities of the other disciples.


Hence Maudgalyayana's realization is even lesser than Shariputra's, and Shariputra's realization is lesser than the Buddha's.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:38 am

deepbluehum wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:I may follow along if deepbluehum remains unreceptive.


Aside from your factual interpretations, show me in the suttas where Buddha himself teaches how his realization is superior to the Arahats.



The Mahasakuludayi Sutta:

http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Mahasakuludayi_Sutta

Udayi, there are five other things, on account of which, my disciples honour and revere me and abide supported receiving the due honour for it. What are the five? Udayi, my disciples honour me for the highest mass of virtues. The recluse Gotama is virtuous, endowed with the highest mass of virtues. This is the first thing on account of which my disciples honour and revere me.

Again Udayi, my disciples honour me for the highest mass of knowledge and vision; The recluse Gotama, knowing, says I know, seeing says, I see. Knowing the recluse Gotama teaches, with examples and saying wonderful things. This is the second thing on account of which my disciples honour and revere me..

Again Udayi, my disciples honour me for the highest mass of wisdom. The recluse Gotama, is endowed with very high wisdom. There is no possibility that he has not recognized a single sign, on account of which a future false teacher would arouse a dispute, and he has rightfully settled all disputes that arise at present. Udayi, have you seen a disciple of mine interrupting me in the middle of a talk?

‘No, venerable sir, I have not.’

My disciples think, indeed, it is on account me, that the disciples are advised, thus they honour me with the highest mass of wisdom. This is the third thing on account of which my disciples honour and revere me and abide supported receiving the due honour for it. .

...

Again, Udayi, when my disciples are afflicted and overcome with unpleasantness, they approach me and ask about the noble truth of unpleasantness. Then I explain it to them. I convince their minds explaining the noble truth of unpleasantness. They ask about the noble truth of the arising of unpleasantness, the noble truth of the cessation of unpleasantness, and the noble truth of the path to the cessation of unpleasantness. I explain to them the path to the cessation of unpleasantness and explaining it convince their minds on it This is the fourth thing on account of which my disciples honour and revere me and abide supported receiving the due honour for it. .

...

I have declared this method to my disciples, fallen to which method my disciples could destroy desires, release the mind from desires, and the mind released through wisdom, realising it here and now, abide Thus too my disciples abide aiming perfect knowledge for emancipation .
Udayi, this is the fifth thing on account of which my disciples honour and revere me and abide supported receiving the due honour for it.’
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:40 am

deepbluehum wrote:
All you do is argue online.


No, it is not all I do. What I do is translate texts and see patients. I sporadically engage in conversations here which are usually trolled.
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:43 am

pueraeternus wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:This has nothing to do with the topic about comparing the fruits of a Buddha and the fruits of an Arhat. You are talking about what may be best for people of various dispositions. Fine if you want to start another thread and talk about it. This thread is off topic enough already.

I'm done. :smile:


I may follow along if deepbluehum remains unreceptive.


DBH is going through a phase, it seems.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:44 am

deepbluehum wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:I may follow along if deepbluehum remains unreceptive.


Aside from your factual interpretations, show me in the suttas where Buddha himself teaches how his realization is superior to the Arahats.



Apprently you beleive the Buddha's teachings are confined to the Nikayas/Agamas. That is ok, but such sentiments are out of place in a Mahāyāna forum.

This is religion, here, not science. If you want science, you are in the wrong place and wrong faith.
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby pueraeternus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:50 am

Malcolm wrote:DBH is going through a phase, it seems.


Indeed. I thought he practiced Dzogchen? It is strange to see him seemingly overturn all his Mahayana convictions. And to boot, not even accepting certain shravakayana tenets.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:55 am

Also funny if he has read so much of the Pali literature that he advocated getting rid of the monastic sangha in another thread.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:02 pm

DBH wants something to happen.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:52 am

I guess something has happened. This discussion has died. But we did get a few pages of interesting debate before the topic was lost! So for that I am happy.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby muni » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:15 pm

One of the biggest pitfalls is becoming jaded by the profoundness of Dharma without the meaning is penetrating/emerging/transforming... (fill in what you like) our being. Another is becoming complacent.
Some people use butter to make leather flexible and soft. Even the butter is always in contact with the leather, but cannot penetrate the leather, the leather will remain hard and fragyl and becomes harder.

"Dharma must permeate our awareness. All sentient beings posses Buddha nature, consider them with great kindheartedness.".

Oops, who said that now? Forgot right now. :smile:
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Re: The Pitfalls of Western analysis of "Dharmic Traditions"

Postby hamsterdance » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:55 am

Just for the sake of anyone reading this thread I thought it might be interesting to read critiques of Malhotra's Being Different by other Hindus.

At least some religious Hindus accuse him of engaging in sloppy research, factual errors and logical fallacies.


A few links

1. http://www.sookta-sumana.blogspot.com/2 ... otras.html

Rajiv Malhotra’s argument that Hinduism is Dharma and not a religion is untenable. Hinduism is a religion with its own epistemology, soteriology, and philosophy. Dharma is the code of life as elaborated by scriptures. (dharati lokaaniti dharmah.) Also "Dhiyateevaajanyriti dharmah. Dharmo dharayati prajaah." In the context of religious life of Hindus, it refers to code of life in accordance with the scriptures, but not independent of religion. The term Hindu religion was always used by many Hindu leaders from Tilak and Aurobindo to Radhakrishnan and Gandhi...


2. http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2012 ... erent.html

3. http://www.sookta-sumana.blogspot.com/2 ... es-de.html

4. http://www.sookta-sumana.blogspot.com/2 ... otras.html

5. http://www.sookta-sumana.blogspot.com/2 ... hotra.html
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