Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:23 pm

Deepbluehum you seem agitated. Which is alright because you know what agitation is.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby futerko » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:56 am

deepbluehum wrote:A process has stages of causes leading to effects. The Buddha described this process as paticca-samuppada, the 12-links of dependent origination. Seeing that process in action actually caused the process to stop.


Therefore it must be possible for the conditioned to produce the unconditioned as its result. (the Unconditioned is therefore also dependently arisen).

deepbluehum wrote:Tantras are not uncreated and eternal, maybe that's what Dzogchen says. But Vajrayana, if you get a correct explanation, never veers from cause and effect. Tantras arise do to conditions, period.


Yes, maybe you could say that the tantra appears to arise from conditions, but what good would that do if the result was conditioned?
Tantras may appear to arise from conditions, but we also know from the result that causes and conditions only appear to arise in the first place.
That's why in Dzogchen, the goal is the path... ie. it just short-circuits the loop of apparent arising.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:14 am

futerko wrote:Therefore it must be possible for the conditioned to produce the unconditioned as its result. (the Unconditioned is therefore also dependently arisen).


It is not required to anticipate the unconditioned, as the uncreated body cannot be produce again even if tried. The conditioned is the means, the 12 dependent origination actually has a permanent axis which is the uncreated body (nirvana). But if one realized the body of phenomena (dharmata), then one does not have to anticipate the cessation of samsara, as it is none other than nirvana in reality. Samsara and nirvana is just different terms for the same body (dharmadhatu).

deepbluehum wrote:Tantras are not uncreated and eternal, maybe that's what Dzogchen says. But Vajrayana, if you get a correct explanation, never veers from cause and effect. Tantras arise do to conditions, period.


futerko wrote:maybe you could say that the tantra appears to arise from conditions, but what good would that do if the result was conditioned?


The conditions is the means, without the means, the tantra has no cause to be written or expounded. But the means is the functioning of the body which is beyond conditions, if the body itself is conditioned, then the principle is absence, the means cannot work without a principle that is changeless. Just like a wheel cannot spin without an axis that support it.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby futerko » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:29 am

Jyoti wrote:the means cannot work without a principle that is changeless. Just like a wheel cannot spin without an axis that support it.


Yes, I agree, but the changeless principle can only appear as a result initially. It is only realised as foundational afterwards.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:32 am

futerko wrote:
Jyoti wrote:the means cannot work without a principle that is changeless. Just like a wheel cannot spin without an axis that support it.


Yes, I agree, but the changeless principle can only appear as a result initially. It is only realised as foundational afterwards.


As long as you keep any result or progresses on your own side only (the side of means), and never messed with the body, then the principle (meaning) will remain authentic.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:07 am

Jyoti wrote:
futerko wrote:
Jyoti wrote:the means cannot work without a principle that is changeless. Just like a wheel cannot spin without an axis that support it.


Yes, I agree, but the changeless principle can only appear as a result initially. It is only realised as foundational afterwards.


As long as you keep any result or progresses on your own side only (the side of means), and never messed with the body, then the principle (meaning) will remain authentic.

Can you clarify this? It doesn't seem to make sense.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:17 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Can you clarify this? It doesn't seem to make sense.


The body is beyond effort, beyond increase or decrease, but when one bothered with it, trying to become it such as with the terms 'dissolve', 'unification' or whatever, one has attempt to make the changeless as conditioned. The side of means can only work indirectly with the body, it merely concerned with the meaning of the body, acting in concordance with it, by doing this it become in concordance with the body without trying to chase after it. The consequence is that one drop any concept regarding the body, but upholding the meaning which belongs to one's own side, the fruit here is bodhi, which is never on the side of the body, otherwise, the body would be conditional (in order to facilitate both cause and fruition of bodhi), thus makeup of concept, and separate from its authentic state.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:22 pm

What do you mean by body? Means is what exactly?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:26 pm

Andrew108 wrote:What do you mean by body? Means is what exactly?



he already defined it, he means dharmadhātu.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:34 pm

I thought so, but why call it body?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:15 pm

Andrew108 wrote:What do you mean by body? Means is what exactly?


The body is what is permanent, uncreated, such as dharma, dharmakaya, dharmadhatu, nirvana and so on. The means is the functionalities of the body, it is make up of consciousnesses of the individual. There are 8 consciousnesses within the individual, only one is utilized as active means, the others as passive support, the body is actually the 8th consciousness (alaya-vijnana) which corresponds to the dharmakaya, it also acts as passive support. The active consciousness that utilized as means is the 6th consciousness, this consciousness support the thinking faculty and also discriminative wisdom, as long as this wisdom is activated, the 7th consciousness become support of the wisdom of equality. When these two is activated, the rest of the consciousnesses transformed into wisdom altogether.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:19 pm

Andrew108 wrote:I thought so, but why call it body?


Body and means (Chinese: Ti-yong) is the central concept of the consciousness-only school of chinese mahayana.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:24 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:What do you mean by body? Means is what exactly?


The body is what is permanent, uncreated, such as dharma, dharmakaya, dharmadhatu, nirvana and so on. The means is the functionalities of the body, it is make up of consciousnesses of the individual. There are 8 consciousnesses within the individual, only one is utilized as active means, the others as passive support, the body is actually the 8th consciousness (alaya-vijnana) which corresponds to the dharmakaya, it also acts as passive support. The active consciousness that utilized as means is the 6th consciousness, this consciousness support the thinking faculty and also discriminative wisdom, as long as this wisdom is activated, the 7th consciousness become support of the wisdom of equality. When these two is activated, the rest of the consciousnesses transformed into wisdom altogether.


This has nothing to do with dzogchen which explicitly rejects the idea that the ālaya = the dharmakāya.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:What do you mean by body? Means is what exactly?


The body is what is permanent, uncreated, such as dharma, dharmakaya, dharmadhatu, nirvana and so on. The means is the functionalities of the body, it is make up of consciousnesses of the individual. There are 8 consciousnesses within the individual, only one is utilized as active means, the others as passive support, the body is actually the 8th consciousness (alaya-vijnana) which corresponds to the dharmakaya, it also acts as passive support. The active consciousness that utilized as means is the 6th consciousness, this consciousness support the thinking faculty and also discriminative wisdom, as long as this wisdom is activated, the 7th consciousness become support of the wisdom of equality. When these two is activated, the rest of the consciousnesses transformed into wisdom altogether.


This has nothing to do with dzogchen which explicitly rejects the idea that the ālaya = the dharmakāya.


Not the version of dzogchen that I know. But I do accept that the body-means concept is not present in the dzogchen teaching, thus the tendencies for many in the tradition to confused the same body, and divide them based on mere words or names is common. The consciousness-only school is much more ragid on such technicalities.

The transformation of consciousnesses is an important concept of mahayana. The alaya-vijnana is transformed as dharmakaya, this should not be a surprise since alaya-vijnana is also refer by the chinese mahayana school as the root consciousness. The trikaya is all within the 8 consciousnesses, and no where else.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:38 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Not the version of dzogchen that I know.



Then the version you know has a problem.

There is an extensive literature differentiating the ālaya from the dharmakāya based on the second chapter of the primary root tantra of Dzogchen, the sgra thal 'gyur.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:46 pm

Although the continuity of each being’s individual basis rigpa is unstained, with no beginning and no end, there is also a beginningless factor, called dumbfoundedness (rmongs-cha – stupidity, bedazzlement), that automatically arises simultaneously (lhan-skyes) with each moment of cognition. It is also called automatically arising unawareness (ignorance) (lhan-skyes ma-rig-pa) regarding phenomena, a nominal disturbing attitude (nyon-mongs-kyi ming-btags-pa) included among the obscurations regarding all knowables, and which prevent omniscience (shes-sgrib). It obscures rigpa’s innate good quality of reflexive deep awareness of its own two-truth nature.

When basis rigpa is flowing together with this fleeting factor of dumbfoundedness, basis rigpa is functioning as an alaya for habits (bag-chags-kyi kun-gzhi) (foundational awareness for the habits of grasping for true existence, for karma, for memories). The alaya for habits is the usual clear light of death of ordinary beings, as well as that which underlies and accompanies every moment of grosser levels of sensory and mental cognition while alive.

It is not that basis rigpa is the cause of the alaya for habits. The two have the same essential nature, in that they refer to the same thing from different mental points of view. Nevertheless, we can logically isolate the two from each other, and thus the alaya for habits and basis rigpa and are not identical. They correspond to the division, made earlier, of clear light mental activity that does not know that the two truths it cognizes are true and the clear light activity that does know that they are true. The fifteenth-century Gelug master Kaydrub Norzang-gyatso (mKhas-grub Nor-bzang rgya-mtsho) implies a similar distinction with his explanation that the clear light of death produces an appearance of voidness, but lacks the recognition and understanding of what it is.


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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:17 am

Malcolm wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
Not the version of dzogchen that I know.



Then the version you know has a problem.

There is an extensive literature differentiating the ālaya from the dharmakāya based on the second chapter of the primary root tantra of Dzogchen, the sgra thal 'gyur.


Not objecting the need to differentiate alaya and dharmakaya either, but on the context above on transformation of consciousness into wisdom, it is regarding the body (basis), both alaya and dharmakaya are not from a different body.

Referring to the mahayana tripitaka:

  頓悟入道要門論云:「問束四智成三身者,幾個智共成一身?幾個智獨成一身?答大圓鏡智獨成法身。平等性智獨成報身。妙觀察智與成所作智共成化身。」以上雖說四智三身,並無別佛,只是一佛所具!三身具足,四智圓滿之佛果,即是究竟位,此即唯識行者之大目的,大歸趣!

My rough translation:

<<The 'Commentary on the main point of sudden realization' said: "On the question regarding the four wisdoms becoming the trikaya, which wisdoms that combined to form the one body? The answer is the mirror-like wisdom alone become the dharmakaya. The equality wisdom become the sambogakaya. The combination of both discriminative wisdom and equality wisdom become the nirmanakaya". Although the above talked about the four wisdoms and trikaya, there are no other buddhas, but being possessed in a single buddha only! The perfection of the fruit of buddhahood that posessed the trikaya and four wisdoms is the seat of the ultimate, this is the grand objective and the meaning of the grand returning of the practitioner of the consciousness-only!>>

Here's the break down of the four wisdoms and their corresponding body and consciousness:

Mirror-like wisdom = dharmakaya = 8th consciousness (alaya-vijnana)
Equality wisdom = sambogakaya = 7th consciousness
Discriminative wisdom = 6th consciousness
Equality wisdom + discriminative wisdom = nirmanakaya

When one discusses on the stand-point of the body, the different terms are not considered different if they belong to same basis. But when one discussed conditions and method based on such conditions, those terms make a difference and should be differentiated in their respective condition.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Pero » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:02 am

Jyoti wrote:Not the version of dzogchen that I know.

Which "version" would that be?
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:07 am

Jyoti wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Jyoti wrote:
Not the version of dzogchen that I know.



Then the version you know has a problem.

There is an extensive literature differentiating the ālaya from the dharmakāya based on the second chapter of the primary root tantra of Dzogchen, the sgra thal 'gyur.


Not objecting the need to differentiate alaya and dharmakaya either, but on the context above on transformation of consciousness into wisdom, it is regarding the body (basis), both alaya and dharmakaya are not from a different body.

Referring to the mahayana tripitaka:

  頓悟入道要門論云:「問束四智成三身者,幾個智共成一身?幾個智獨成一身?答大圓鏡智獨成法身。平等性智獨成報身。妙觀察智與成所作智共成化身。」以上雖說四智三身,並無別佛,只是一佛所具!三身具足,四智圓滿之佛果,即是究竟位,此即唯識行者之大目的,大歸趣!

My rough translation:

<<The 'Commentary on the main point of sudden realization' said: "On the question regarding the four wisdoms becoming the trikaya, which wisdoms that combined to form the one body? The answer is the mirror-like wisdom alone become the dharmakaya. The equality wisdom become the sambogakaya. The combination of both discriminative wisdom and equality wisdom become the nirmanakaya". Although the above talked about the four wisdoms and trikaya, there are no other buddhas, but being possessed in a single buddha only! The perfection of the fruit of buddhahood that posessed the trikaya and four wisdoms is the seat of the ultimate, this is the grand objective and the meaning of the grand returning of the practitioner of the consciousness-only!>>

Here's the break down of the four wisdoms and their corresponding body and consciousness:

Mirror-like wisdom = dharmakaya = 8th consciousness (alaya-vijnana)
Equality wisdom = sambogakaya = 7th consciousness
Discriminative wisdom = 6th consciousness
Equality wisdom + discriminative wisdom = nirmanakaya

When one discusses on the stand-point of the body, the different terms are not considered different if they belong to same basis. But when one discussed conditions and method based on such conditions, those terms make a difference and should be differentiated in their respective condition.


Yogacara is not commensurate with Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:36 am

Malcolm wrote:
Yogacara is not commensurate with Dzogchen.


I didn't find difficulty decibering dzogchen within the framework of consciousness-only system. They both belong to the sudden vehicle, but the consciousness-only system is purer as it is never a mixture of gradual and sudden teachings. The main collection of dzogchen teaching is from teachers who taught the gradual path of vajrayana.
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