Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

AilurusFulgens
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Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby AilurusFulgens » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:29 pm


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Jyoti
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:50 am

Malcom is free to answer on his own, but here I like to add a little.

It is insufficient to conclude the Buddha did not believe in the apaurusheyatva of the Vedas at this stage. There are hints that the buddha has demonstrated respect for the 'ancient ones' which he refered as the Brahman of past generation (not those of his time). The many stories of the buddha defeating the heretics of his time, is not indication of his refuting the vedas tradition altogether, but of wrong views that flourished at that era.

For anything uncreated and eternal, in buddhism, the concept always refered to the body (the basis/principle as opposed to means/function), such as nirvana, dharmatadhu, trikaya, dharma and do forth. A tantra being a form of dharma, it belongs to the category of the body and so it is automatically associated as uncreated and eternal.

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futerko
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby futerko » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:23 am

My personal take on this would be to consider something like Pythagorus' theorem. It was true before it was discovered and it expresses something that is necessarily true. It could be said to be timeless and unfabricated.
For me that is the only reading that avoids a dualistic view of the eternal.

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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby blackpath » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:56 pm


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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:06 pm


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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:14 pm

I've talked to so-called high level Tibetan yogis and they also veer off into Vedanta/Tantra thinking. Vajrayana toes a fine line, but as a reaction to Siva/Shakti tantra, often succumbs to it. It's a veil of a metaphysical view that descends: nonduality becomes monism/pantheism. When that happens, you get the Vedas and the Dzogchen tantras. This is the wideopen entryway to the god realms and the idea, "all this is me."

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futerko
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby futerko » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:19 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:20 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:28 pm


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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby T. Chokyi » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:29 pm


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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:30 pm


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Jyoti
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:32 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:38 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

deepbluehum
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:45 pm


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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:54 pm

IOW, In my opinion the Mahayana went down a wrong path with this line of thinking. The Buddha's real message is about a path not about ontics. The path is in the body, which is all conditional. Nirvana consciousness transcends eternalism and nihilism: that was his original point. You have to get beyond conjecturing to recognize it, and then recognizing it is beyond ontics other than to say, consciousness which is without surface or feature. Forever and a day, is a feature. Nirvana does not have this feature. The later Third Turning expansions are without merit. Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen exist in a Hegelian dialectical relationship, which means that Dzogchen cannot be final, because their would have to be a further response to it. This is the problem with asserting things, and that's why the Buddha steered clear of it. His was a pragmatic problem solving venture. Whether he totally solved the problem is for us to see. That's what life is about. I contend, he did, but went a bit too far. I don't think the Vinaya as a necessary thing. Perhaps if it was, it was purely contextual and dependent upon the situation of Indian society at that time.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:12 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:15 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:18 pm


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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:09 pm


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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:15 pm



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