Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

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Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby AilurusFulgens » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:29 pm

Topic split from here:

viewtopic.php?f=102&t=9619&start=60

Malcolm wrote:
viniketa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Buddha was a Vedic Indian.


We often see it written that Guatama Buddha 'rejected the Vedas' or 'rejected the authority of the Vedas', while it is my understanding that he rejected the authority of certain groups of Brahmin priests. See Stephen Knapp: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/buddhism_a ... ctions.htm



He rejected the idea that the Vedas were shruti, uncreated and eternal. Of course, such ideas are key in Dzogchen where we find the Dzogchen tantras are uncreated and eternal in the same sense the Vedas were held to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apaurusheyatva

M


Malcolm,

could you please elaborate on this notion that Dzogchen tantras are considered uncreated and eternal? This sounds fascinating. Why are they considered as such?

If this is the case, then Dzogchen seems to be much closer to Sanatana Dharma than to other vehicles of Buddhadharma, since Vedas are merely being substituted with Dzogchen Tantras.

As stated Buddha did not believe in the apaurusheyatva of the Vedas. Would he do so in the case of Dzogchen Tantras and if so why? What would make the Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal, while the same is being denied to the Vedas?

Thank you in advance for the answers.

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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:50 am

Malcom is free to answer on his own, but here I like to add a little.

It is insufficient to conclude the Buddha did not believe in the apaurusheyatva of the Vedas at this stage. There are hints that the buddha has demonstrated respect for the 'ancient ones' which he refered as the Brahman of past generation (not those of his time). The many stories of the buddha defeating the heretics of his time, is not indication of his refuting the vedas tradition altogether, but of wrong views that flourished at that era.

For anything uncreated and eternal, in buddhism, the concept always refered to the body (the basis/principle as opposed to means/function), such as nirvana, dharmatadhu, trikaya, dharma and do forth. A tantra being a form of dharma, it belongs to the category of the body and so it is automatically associated as uncreated and eternal.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby futerko » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:23 am

My personal take on this would be to consider something like Pythagorus' theorem. It was true before it was discovered and it expresses something that is necessarily true. It could be said to be timeless and unfabricated.
For me that is the only reading that avoids a dualistic view of the eternal.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby blackpath » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:56 pm

Jyoti wrote:
It is insufficient to conclude the Buddha did not believe in the apaurusheyatva of the Vedas at this stage. There are hints that the buddha has demonstrated respect for the 'ancient ones' which he refered as the Brahman of past generation (not those of his time). The many stories of the buddha defeating the heretics of his time, is not indication of his refuting the vedas tradition altogether, but of wrong views that flourished at that era.


I recall in the vinaya pitaka mahaavagga the buddha pays respect to Kashyap when he states that the "true form" of the veda was transmitted to 10 or so rishis, but either the (not clear ((all the current versions) or (some of the current versions))) were intentionally altered or corrupt, so he could not acknowledge the veda and its adherents as it stood.

One gets the sense translating the literature of that time of obvious alteration--for example the 8th chapter of the chaandogya and its description of daharya vidyaa stand out as something, perhaps older than the surrounding text. Its discussion of the space in the heart and other things to do with daharya vidyaa , the bridge that separates things, the heart naadis and relationship to "supreme light", "sun", "sun rays", deep sleep, and process of dying seems of different origin.

Would love to have transcriptions of everything that was taught to the buddha at that time...

Bottom line though--we can't be sure of what the buddha thought was self-evident truth (apaurusheyatva) "true"/"true form" about the ancient transmitted veda, or even its implied corrupt form that might have been in his hand (or ear).
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:06 pm

Jyoti wrote:Malcom is free to answer on his own, but here I like to add a little.

It is insufficient to conclude the Buddha did not believe in the apaurusheyatva of the Vedas at this stage. There are hints that the buddha has demonstrated respect for the 'ancient ones' which he refered as the Brahman of past generation (not those of his time). The many stories of the buddha defeating the heretics of his time, is not indication of his refuting the vedas tradition altogether, but of wrong views that flourished at that era.

For anything uncreated and eternal, in buddhism, the concept always refered to the body (the basis/principle as opposed to means/function), such as nirvana, dharmatadhu, trikaya, dharma and do forth. A tantra being a form of dharma, it belongs to the category of the body and so it is automatically associated as uncreated and eternal.


The brahmins also accept that in some theoretical Satya Yuga, the castes came about only by svadharma, one's one impetus. If you had certain inclinations, you did what came naturally. Some were spiritual, some were organizers, some were commercial, some were servers, etc. That is a fable. Buddha was also saying, "if it's like that, then fine, have a caste system." But the hereditary system is never okay for Buddha. Honestly, I have no idea where these Westerners get off thinking the Vedas are all good. You have no place in that world. "The wrong views that flourished of that era" are the wrong views of this era, and are actually the only views that ever flourishes about the issue. Tantras are not uncreated and eternal, maybe that's what Dzogchen says. But Vajrayana, if you get a correct explanation, never veers from cause and effect. Tantras arise do to conditions, period. If you go the route you are going, you're a Sanatana Dharma person. That's a different religion. Buddha was not about the Vedas.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:14 pm

I've talked to so-called high level Tibetan yogis and they also veer off into Vedanta/Tantra thinking. Vajrayana toes a fine line, but as a reaction to Siva/Shakti tantra, often succumbs to it. It's a veil of a metaphysical view that descends: nonduality becomes monism/pantheism. When that happens, you get the Vedas and the Dzogchen tantras. This is the wideopen entryway to the god realms and the idea, "all this is me."
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby futerko » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:19 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Tantras are not uncreated and eternal, maybe that's what Dzogchen says. But Vajrayana, if you get a correct explanation, never veers from cause and effect. Tantras arise do to conditions, period.


According to Nagarjuna, both truths are dependently arisen, so cause and effect leads to the "uncreated and eternal" - that's what my first response was saying, there is no dualism there, just a misperception of what "uncreated and eternal" means in this context.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:20 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Tantras arise do to conditions, period.


Does the dharmakāya arise due to conditions?
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Tantras arise do to conditions, period.


Does the dharmakāya arise due to conditions?


Doesn't arise at all.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby T. Chokyi » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Tantras arise do to conditions, period.


Does the dharmakāya arise due to conditions?



No
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:30 pm

futerko wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Tantras are not uncreated and eternal, maybe that's what Dzogchen says. But Vajrayana, if you get a correct explanation, never veers from cause and effect. Tantras arise do to conditions, period.


According to Nagarjuna, both truths are dependently arisen, so cause and effect leads to the "uncreated and eternal" - that's what my first response was saying, there is no dualism there, just a misperception of what "uncreated and eternal" means in this context.


No, the conditionality of all things is not created by anyone. That's what you are supposed to understand.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Jyoti » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:32 pm

deepbluehum wrote:The brahmins also accept that in some theoretical Satya Yuga, the castes came about only by svadharma, one's one impetus. If you had certain inclinations, you did what came naturally. Some were spiritual, some were organizers, some were commercial, some were servers, etc. That is a fable. Buddha was also saying, "if it's like that, then fine, have a caste system." But the hereditary system is never okay for Buddha. Honestly, I have no idea where these Westerners get off thinking the Vedas are all good. You have no place in that world. "The wrong views that flourished of that era" are the wrong views of this era, and are actually the only views that ever flourishes about the issue. Tantras are not uncreated and eternal, maybe that's what Dzogchen says.


The tantra could have written and destroyed, thus created and impermanent, but the elements of the tantra points to the body of the doctrine, elements such as dharmakaya, nirvana, dharmadhatu and so on, these elements are unborn and permanent. It is due these elements (contents) that the tantra itself is considered as uncreated and eternal, not the papers and ink that used to write the words, those are the means which is created and impermanent.

deepbluehum wrote:But Vajrayana, if you get a correct explanation, never veers from cause and effect. Tantras arise do to conditions, period. If you go the route you are going, you're a Sanatana Dharma person. That's a different religion. Buddha was not about the Vedas.


Of course, cause and effect are the requirement of the means, but the body of the teaching is not based on cause and effect, but of basis that are unborn and permanent. Tantras arise due to conditions, of course. But it is the condition of the means in response to the body which is beyond any condition. The Vedas point to the body of the dharma, that why they are source of inference for valid cognition even in the Buddhist tradition that accept them.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:38 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Tantras arise do to conditions, period.


Does the dharmakāya arise due to conditions?


Doesn't arise at all.



Yes, and therefore, you accept an uncreated and eternal tantra. Otherwise, you would have to assert that dharmakāya is a mere blank insentient voidness.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:Yes, and therefore, you accept an uncreated and eternal tantra. Otherwise, you would have to assert that dharmakāya is a mere blank insentient voidness.


How about this: What dharmakaya?
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:54 pm

IOW, In my opinion the Mahayana went down a wrong path with this line of thinking. The Buddha's real message is about a path not about ontics. The path is in the body, which is all conditional. Nirvana consciousness transcends eternalism and nihilism: that was his original point. You have to get beyond conjecturing to recognize it, and then recognizing it is beyond ontics other than to say, consciousness which is without surface or feature. Forever and a day, is a feature. Nirvana does not have this feature. The later Third Turning expansions are without merit. Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen exist in a Hegelian dialectical relationship, which means that Dzogchen cannot be final, because their would have to be a further response to it. This is the problem with asserting things, and that's why the Buddha steered clear of it. His was a pragmatic problem solving venture. Whether he totally solved the problem is for us to see. That's what life is about. I contend, he did, but went a bit too far. I don't think the Vinaya as a necessary thing. Perhaps if it was, it was purely contextual and dependent upon the situation of Indian society at that time.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:12 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Yes, and therefore, you accept an uncreated and eternal tantra. Otherwise, you would have to assert that dharmakāya is a mere blank insentient voidness.


How about this: What dharmakaya?


Right, you just became an annihilationist.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:15 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Nirvana does not have this feature.


Yes, actually the Pali sutras describe nirvana as deathless, permanant, etc.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Nirvana does not have this feature.


Yes, actually the Pali sutras describe nirvana as deathless, permanant, etc.

According to Theravada Nirvana does not arise or fall (although all other conditioned phenomena do), so it is considered "permanent".

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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Yes, and therefore, you accept an uncreated and eternal tantra. Otherwise, you would have to assert that dharmakāya is a mere blank insentient voidness.


How about this: What dharmakaya?


Right, you just became an annihilationist.


Putting words in my mouth. I'm not bound to your vocab.
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Re: Dzogchen tantras uncreated and eternal

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Nirvana does not have this feature.


Yes, actually the Pali sutras describe nirvana as deathless, permanant, etc.


At the same time, the Tathagata cannot be said to exist after death. Suttas don't actually say Nibbana is permanent. Insofar as that goes, it's a far cry from sounds, lights and rays I'm afraid.

see note 1

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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