Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:13 pm

Yudron wrote:The terton himself never used that language to describe any aspect of the medium or short deity practice, or the cycle in general, and neither did Dudjom Rinpoche in the supportive texts.


Dudjom Throma, in all sadhanas, is explicitly described by Dudjom Rinpoche as a called "Ati syle of creation" i.e. instant recollection without any seed syllable at all. In the retreat manual it is stated:

"Here, the unelaborate ati creation beyond the conventions of the three samadhis is the universe arising as the basis, the self-originated naturally formed mandala, the totally perfect (rdzog chen par) self-visualization in a moment of recollection in the manner of a fish leaping from the water."

Since the goal of Anuyoga is atiyoga, it is fair to say that actually the Throma is ati of anu. Anu because it involves transformation, ati because the principle of creation is a self-originated naturally formed [rang byung lhun grub] mandala.

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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:40 pm

So, is anyone participating through the webcast? :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby wisdomfire » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:53 pm

Thanks everyone for your clarification. ChNNR said that as long as the practice belongs to Anuyoga style, we can do it in the short way he prescribed. So i will assume that this practice belongs to the Anuyoga style... because as Yudron and Malcolm said, the view is Ati yoga, but the method is transformation. :juggling:
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby Yudron » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:18 pm

wisdomfire wrote:Thanks everyone for your clarification. ChNNR said that as long as the practice belongs to Anuyoga style, we can do it in the short way he prescribed. So i will assume that this practice belongs to the Anuyoga style... because as Yudron and Malcolm said, the view is Ati yoga, but the method is transformation. :juggling:


Dudjom Lingpa'sThroma sadhanas with tsog combine mahayoga, chö, and the view of Atiyoga in a unique way -- it's really something. I put this in the plural because there are Three: a long practice that uses a different root terma text (and takes all day to do), the medium length called Thron dring (formally called the Yeshe Nyima)that takes 4.5 or 5 hours to do formally, and the short called Thro chung that can be completed in two or three hours. Dungse Thinley Norbe RInpoche compiled a user friendly version of Thro chung that can be practiced straight through with no inserts. I think eventually we will make a "three way" (English, Tibetan, Phonetics) version of Thron dring that is arranged in consecutive order, we have made a lot of progress on this, but it will be a while. Chagdud Gompa made a wonderful edition years ago, but it is a traditional arrangement that involves a lot of flipping back and forth to various pieces... hard to get the hang of. Yeshe Melong (Gyatrul Rinpoche's people) have a more user friendly version, but many prefer the Chagdud translation (Sara Harding.)

Everyone loves to do those practices, they are the most popular group practice we do. When we do this practice in week long intensives most summers, the most interesting assortment of people come; people who like to sing, goddess people, dzogchen people, chö people, mahayoga people, and even the occasional Hindu!

That being said, these texts are only a fraction of what the cycle contains.
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:44 pm

Elaborate ritual does not necessarily equate with mahāyoga. It is the style of creation that determines whether something is Mahayoga or not. Just so you know, I have the complete transmission of this cycle and over the years have practiced it a lot.

Yudron wrote:
Dudjom Lingpa'sThroma sadhanas with tsog combine mahayoga, chö, and the view of Atiyoga in a unique way -- it's really something...
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby Yudron » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:18 am

Malcolm wrote:Elaborate ritual does not necessarily equate with mahāyoga. It is the style of creation that determines whether something is Mahayoga or not. Just so you know, I have the complete transmission of this cycle and over the years have practiced it a lot.

Yudron wrote:
Dudjom Lingpa'sThroma sadhanas with tsog combine mahayoga, chö, and the view of Atiyoga in a unique way -- it's really something...


I know you received it from Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje. All nyen drups in our tradition are defined as maha yoga, elaborate or unelaborate.

Regarding the manner of arising as the deity:

"In the main practice, the development stage of the deity is the unelaborate ati approach that goes beyond such conventional techniques as the three stages of meditative absorption and so forth. Termed the "arousal of the entire world of possible phenomenal experience as the ground of being" (nangsrid zhirzheng), it is a supreme moment of total recall, the clear visualization of the self-occurring, spontaneously accomplished mandala arising in the manner of a fish leaping from water."

HH Dudjom Rinpoche in his retreat manual for Throma Ngagmo
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby ratna » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:10 pm

If I remember correctly, I once read somewhere that a serious practitioner of Tröma should practice only Tröma and nothing else. Is that true? Is there such an instruction?
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby Yudron » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:37 pm

ratna wrote:If I remember correctly, I once read somewhere that a serious practitioner of Tröma should practice only Tröma and nothing else. Is that true? Is there such an instruction?


That’s a good question. I think I’ve met others who have gotten that impression, too. Do you remember where you read that?

There certainly have been people—and whole communities of yogis and yoginis—who have focused almost completely on this cycle. Degyal Rinpoche, a student of Dudjom Lingpa’s, went to the Mt. Kailash area and established a yogic encampment of monks and nuns there, later joined by his student the Golok ngakpa Serta Rinpoche who had a group of his non-monastic students. This community practiced the Throma cycle together every day, and were widely influential throughout northern Nepal and Western Tibet throughout the mid 20th century. Eventually, they lived with HH Dudjom Rinpoche’s community in exile in the refugee camp in Orissa, India. Later, their tulkus established a center in Humla, Nepal that is now doing well.

This story really inspires me because these were very simple natural rural people who practiced a small group of practices – and I’ve heard sometimes their lamas would have them specialized in just one practice within the Throma cycle prescribed for them by their lama. Yet, everyone says that (the nuns in particular) showed the most accomplishment when they died in Orissa, while some of the lamas who were Dharma scholars who died there showed no accomplishment at all (sadly).

Generally, young people in that community did the sa ter ngondro first – a long ngondro terma of Dudjom Lingpa’s (like the Longchen Nyingthig) – then their 100 bums of Guru Rinpoche mantra, then the Throma ngondro, etc.... Degyal Rinpoche had an expedited path to Dzogchen for the rural elderly that included doing a large number of manis as their ngondro and going straight to dzogchen.

Now, Garab Rinpoche is doing something similar in Bhutan.

There is also one beautiful letter of heart advice by Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche in the sung bum telling a monk who was his student that he should focus on that cycle.

That being said, I get the impression that generally Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche had yogins do retreat on guru (such as Tsokye Thukthig or Dorje Drollo) and Yidam (such as Vajrakilaya) in addition to the Khandro after their first ngondro. Then, a serious Throma practitioner would continue on focusing mainly on Throma while continuing to recite the super-short daily practices on the lama and yidam as part of their practice day.
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby ratna » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:59 pm

Yudron wrote: Do you remember where you read that?


I don't -- I read it on the 'Net, some forum or other. Thank you for your reply, this is fascinating stuff!

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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby username » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:10 pm

There is no such should on Troma exclusive practice, merely that some monks & ngakpa families in some shangs or wandering about who did the long practices daily, realistically had/have no time for anything else on some days. Taking teachings on her is excellent for everyone & IMO Troma practice progress needs a personal lama interaction and empowerments in person and she is serious about the practitioner severing all attachments to absolutely what-so-ever and so should be taken up by serious people.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby Yudron » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:54 pm

username wrote:There is no such should on Troma exclusive practice, merely that some monks & ngakpa families in some shangs or wandering about who did the long practices daily, realistically had/have no time for anything else on some days. Taking teachings on her is excellent for everyone & IMO Troma practice progress needs a personal lama interaction and empowerments in person and she is serious about the practitioner severing all attachments to absolutely what-so-ever and so should be taken up by serious people.


So much to say, but now I'm grinding tsampa, preparing for tsog with my vajra sisters and brothers. It's Dakini Day and it's time to practice.
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Re: Throma Nagmo Teachings by Lama Tharchin Rinpoche

Postby Yudron » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:50 pm

Lama Tharchin Rinpoche and Lama Yeshe Wangmo at Throma teachings in Los Angeles (8/12/12)
(Photo by Milla Cochran, http://www.theroseweddings.com)
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