Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

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Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:39 pm

Inspired by the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=9638

jmlee369 wrote:Looking at the actions of other masters, it becomes clear that a profound mastery and realisation of the Dharma does not seem to guarantee perfection of conduct and understanding.


Comment and discuss.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby jmlee369 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:57 pm

Well one prime example I had in mind was Master Seung Sahn. As far as ordinary beings can discern the realisation of Masters, sharira are the only physical basis on which we can gauge the realisations of a Master. Master Seung Sahn is acknowledged to have had sexual affairs (as far as I know, these claims seem to be true) and thus, committed a parajika offence. And yet, upon cremation, sharira were found. By tradition of the monastery, the sharira were not collected but disposed of with the rest of the remains.

Likewise, the majority of Mahayana monastics take meals in the afternoon, yet countless Mahayana masters have manifested sharira and other visible signs upon their passing.

I am also reminded of a tale in which a certain Master in China was widely acclaimed and taught vast audiences, and although some of his teachings were proper Dharma, some of this teachings were quite unfounded and thus, he experienced some problems in his next life, but he still attained conditions that were conducive to Dharma practice.

I guess we should keep in mind that only the 8th bhumi and beyond is a state of irreversability; until then, errors are still possible.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Indrajala » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:39 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Inspired by the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=9638

jmlee369 wrote:Looking at the actions of other masters, it becomes clear that a profound mastery and realisation of the Dharma does not seem to guarantee perfection of conduct and understanding.


Comment and discuss.


It depends if they really have mastery and realisation.

There is the idea that a realized being can act in otherwise shocking ways in order to teach and cultivate expedient causes and conditions for disciples that they are unaware of, though who knows when this actually happens.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Osho » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:18 pm

Everyone is human and humans are fallible.
What was acceptable in some contexts in the past could be actionable today. One thinks of the sharp blow to the head administered by some Zen masters to unsuspecting yet sometimes latterly grateful students.
Consider also the almost casual homophobia of others prior to the general unacceptability of such attitudes. Celibate environments are breeding grounds of frustration too, a plugged volcano remains a volcano. Eruptions are inevitable. We may be saddened but should not be surprised when reading of these blessedly rare transgressions.
Different days, different ways and humans are equally fallible today.
The message,if valid should; hopefully transcend its medium.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby undefineable » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting from the original thread:
jmlee369 wrote:not all pronouncements (or even conduct) of realised masters are neccesarily true. _ _ it becomes clear that a profound mastery and realisation of the Dharma does not seem to guarantee perfection of conduct and understanding
,
One wonders what any level of realisation amounts to if it doesn't improve conduct and understanding and discourage lies :shrug: - Isn't it supposed to be realisation of how things really are?
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Osho » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:01 pm

Depends what you man by realised master I suppose.
If the criterion is 'perfect human being' it'd be a long and potentially fruitless search to discover one.
Why would anyone need to seek such a person in first place please?
Is it a 'koan' sort of exercise?
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Astus » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:11 pm

Regarding bodhisattvas, on the 2nd bhumi they attain purity in the ten virtuous conducts.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

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True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:20 pm

Discussions about teachers tend to get ugly in a hurry. It's hard enough for me to not use comparisons regarding my own circumstances let alone someone else's teacher.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby undefineable » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:25 pm

Osho wrote:Depends what you man by realised master I suppose.
If the criterion is 'perfect human being' it'd be a long and potentially fruitless search to discover one.
Why would anyone need to seek such a person in first place please?
Is it a 'koan' sort of exercise?


But the understanding of a realised master is unlikely to be worse, in terms of the three poisons, than that of most uneducated laymen, surely? {Conduct, I understand, is a slightly different matter - unless it's clearly informed by misunderstandings_}
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Osho » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:23 pm

But it could be.It's rather a circular discussion. Nothing wrong with those of course but possibly best left to those who acknowledge the validity of the chaps in question.
We don't, as such; in Tariki line. Not to say they are invalid, that's a subjective call. Men create gods to worship as needs be.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby undefineable » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:13 am

Osho wrote:But it could be.It's rather a circular discussion. Nothing wrong with those of course, but possibly best left to _ _


Worse than normal understanding? In that case, exactly what would be 'realised' or 'masterful' about them? I realise 'realisation' ( :lol: ) is somehow a non-compounded quality, but doesn't it inevitably 'spill over' into ordinary/relative 'realising' as well? Otherwise, we would have the absurd possibility of a mentally-retarded Buddha not manifesting as such in order to teach, but unable to manifest otherwise :thinking:

'Those who acknowledge the validity of the chap' who led to this thread being opened have already expressed disappointment and more. On the other hand, a monk with a purely intellectual understanding of the dharma could still gain a lot of respect, but might be prone to 'slipping' into hyper-samsaric thinking as this chap seems to _ _
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Nemo » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:34 am

Their motivation is perfect. Their actions are limited by their intellect, accumulated wisdom and culture. Some have supramundane abilities that help a little. They do their best. If they have not tamed their mind and their motivation is tainted they are not realized IMO. Something to watch out for in the investigative phase before one commits completely to a teacher.

Being an expert at one thing does not make you an expert at everything. They often are pretty damn exceptional though.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby undefineable » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:45 am

Nemo wrote:Their actions are limited by their intellect, accumulated wisdom and culture. Some have supramundane abilities that help a little.


There's nothing supramundane about having enough common sense and intuition (not intellect) to see where other people are coming from when you're a 'teacher' sharing personal stories with people from all walks of life, or to see through enough of any culture's hubris to atleast remain silent on it's "hot-button" issues.

[quote="Nemo"]Being an expert at one thing does not make you an expert at everything.[quote="Nemo"]

I think I've already said that realisation, to my understanding, gives you atleast a better handle on everything else. I realise I and (less so) others are breaking forum rules on this pair of threads, so I'd like to shut up now. However, if no-one realised (i.e. no-one other than me) is prepared to atleast say "this guy clearly wasn't showing realisation" with regard to the original thread, then many are likely to be put off Buddhadharma altogether by the whole situation.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby muni » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:52 am

Realized teachers? How must be the conduct of nondual nature in order to please my ego?

My own comments will be the nonsense! Finding faults is my own habit, but I can sell it all for being sharp discerment, prajna... no problem.
Bodhichitta; nondual nature; then master and others are equal. Realized ones see only buddhas. Equal! And so conduct is without me-you-action-concepts.

From that the selfless spontaneous warm actions are for the sake of all so that every being can realize the same (so that they can recognize their buddha nature being temporary hidden). Anyway, all that is me told.

I forget usually that all is my own mind, what I meet and who and so on. Therefore I meet here all fools! Hello!

Bowing. :namaste:
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Jyoti » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:04 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Inspired by the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=9638

jmlee369 wrote:Looking at the actions of other masters, it becomes clear that a profound mastery and realisation of the Dharma does not seem to guarantee perfection of conduct and understanding.


Comment and discuss.


So called perfect conduct and understanding differed with the various vehicle of teaching, teacher with high realization is likely to concern mainly with the precept of the higher vehicle which bear no similarity with the lower vehicle of which the majority of buddhists are familiar with. In such a case, only a teacher / student of similar capacity can discern whether such as teacher has deviate from their practice.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Osho » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:38 pm

With all due respect. Might what you describe be a recipe for potential abuse?
Teacher perhaps claiming....
'Well what I did or said may appear to be abusive but as you are of the lower orders, you simply cannot understand the fact that it was not'.
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Jyoti » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:20 pm

Osho wrote:With all due respect. Might what you describe be a recipe for potential abuse?
Teacher perhaps claiming....
'Well what I did or said may appear to be abusive but as you are of the lower orders, you simply cannot understand the fact that it was not'.


One does not rely on teachers based on their personality or conducts but on their teaching, as one of the malayana's four reliances states: "rely on the teaching, not the person".
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby plwk » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:38 pm

This thread should be renamed 'Realized teachers and 'students'- their mundane errors and misconducts'... that shld balance it :thinking:
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby Osho » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:50 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Osho wrote:With all due respect. Might what you describe be a recipe for potential abuse?
Teacher perhaps claiming....
'Well what I did or said may appear to be abusive but as you are of the lower orders, you simply cannot understand the fact that it was not'.


One does not rely on teachers based on their personality or conducts but on their teaching, as one of the malayana's four reliances states: "rely on the teaching, not the person".

...................................
Thank you. That makes perfect sense. Please excuse my ignorance.
:-)
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Re: Realized teachers - their mundane errors and misconducts

Postby muni » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:01 pm

To be aware of a single shortcoming within oneself is more useful than to be aware of a thousand in somebody else. Without pure perception, how can we discern? How then to speak about behaviour by wisdom/compassion emanations?
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