Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Lotus415 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:37 am

Have to say I was quite shocked to read all of this....

"Homosexual behavior, especially, is behavior that will put an end to nations and humanity. What does it mean by putting an end to nations? Someone who practices homosexuality will not care about their country, so that country will disintegrate. Homosexuals do not procreate, so the human race will vanish! This kind of behavior is forbidden by national law, universal law, and natural law. Those who do will fall into the hells no matter who they are. Every one of us must know this.

People cannot be oblivious to the basic responsibilities of human beings, otherwise we cannot even compare to animals. Notice how animals do not engage in homosexual behavior. Some may argue that same-sex lab rats practice homosexuality, but that is because you force these rats. Has anyone confined you so that you are only with those of your sex and make you practice homosexuality? This kind of behavior defies creation; it is wrong. Cultivators must be normal and not psychologically deranged."

the rest can be read here:
http://www.gbm-online.com/online/dharma/avoid.html
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby catmoon » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:48 am

:jawdrop:
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:03 am

Ouch-time again and again.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Indrajala » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:06 am

Regardless of how much education or status you may have, engaging in homosexual behavior is intolerable to the world. Why? It is because you have flouted the natural order of creation, the laws of yin and yang, the norm.


Natural order of creation? This is not a Buddhist idea it goes without saying.

If homosexuality becomes legal, then the human race will vanish. Why will it vanish? Heaven will punish us.


I was unaware of a "heaven" with the agency to punish humanity.

This is a bunch of bogus gay bashing nonsense.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby rory » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:11 am

Why are you shocked; Asian Buddhism has been oh so very sexist and misogynistic for millenia. As a gay woman it's no suprise to me; I'm more than happy in a Japanese sect that accepts me as I am & knows that being Buddhist has nothing to do with one's particular sexuality
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Lotus415 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:18 am

Shocked, and disappointed, especially since he is referred to as a Bodhissatva by some. Imagine how many may have been turned away from the Dharma from hearing such horrible words? It's one thing to have an opinion on homosexuality, as the Dalai Lama has been known to state, but these words are just very unsettling.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:19 am

His ideas on Homosexuality are extreme but also common in the sense that they were culturally conditioned. But his idea of dharma was really scary:

''How should we cultivate? We must first let go of our desires and put and end to love.
That is, people should avoid having too close or too distant of a relationship.
Being too distant and you're not liked; being too close and you're being emotional,
which means that you cannot cultivate.''

Compare this with Dilgo Kyentse's 'Dzogchen Prctice in Everyday Life'

''The everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and
openness to all situations and emotions, and to all people, experiencing
everything totally without mental reservations and blockages, so that
one never withdraws or centralizes into oneself.''
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:27 am

Andrew, general Mahayana has always been the path of renunciation. Nothing scary about that.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Lotus415 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:29 am

Andrew108 wrote:His ideas on Homosexuality are extreme but also common in the sense that they were culturally conditioned. But his idea of dharma was really scary:

''How should we cultivate? We must first let go of our desires and put and end to love.
That is, people should avoid having too close or too distant of a relationship.
Being too distant and you're not liked; being too close and you're being emotional,
which means that you cannot cultivate.''

Compare this with Dilgo Kyentse's 'Dzogchen Prctice in Everyday Life'

''The everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and
openness to all situations and emotions, and to all people, experiencing
everything totally without mental reservations and blockages, so that
one never withdraws or centralizes into oneself.''


Question and answer to Master Hsuan Hua:

Q: Is it okay for people to be close and is it okay for people and their pets to be close?
A: By being too close, you end up becoming the same life-form as that person or pet in the future.

http://www.gbm-online.com/online/dharma ... s_5_1.html

This site has many of his talks and question and answer sessions with him. I'm finding a lot of his responses to be quite ..... different.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:30 am

I think religious figures have a tough time knowing what to say, as ultimately their source material for such declarations is anachronistic and authored by someone living in a very different world.

I don't recall Buddha specifically declaring homosexuality to be immoral or sexual misconduct, but there are figures representing religious institutions who do so.

There are many threads about the topic, but I haven't seen anything conclusively linked to Shakyamuni.

Can you have homosexual desire and still be a Buddhist?

Can you actively practise homosexuality and still be a Buddhist?

Is the above much different from asking if you can be a Buddhist if you desire or have a glass of wine every night?

If you take Vows, are you bound for hell if your interpretation is wrong or differs from your Guru's - and what if he or she changes their stance on the issue?

It is sometimes amusing to see how religious institutions squirm, wriggle, evade and obfuscate for fear of offending someone on one or other side of the debate on where you put your body parts.

I prefer religious leaders to be clear, like Hsuan Hua. Then we can decide for ourselves if we should follow them and their interpretation of Buddhism.

Christians have the same issue, and the same squirming clerics.

Surely it's an easy question for them to answer so people can decide - is homosexual behaviour a form of misconduct they want their followers to avoid?

There are many forms of bigotry and exclusion within Buddhism, and they are rarely consistent or static - look at what happens if the being you are told is your enlightened Dharmapala is suddenly classed as a demon by your religious leader.

Who knows what may be next ? Therefore, it is vital for us that Gurus are honest and state their views simply - as Hsuan Hua did. Now people know exactly how to behave in terms of being his follower.

Here's one link I found:

http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/buddhism.htm
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:34 am

Nighthawk wrote:Andrew, general Mahayana has always been the path of renunciation. Nothing scary about that.

That ain't renunciation. That ain't Mahayana.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:40 am

Andrew108 wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:Andrew, general Mahayana has always been the path of renunciation. Nothing scary about that.

That ain't renunciation. That ain't Mahayana.

You know more than Hsuan Hua? He's wrong about the gay issue but from most of his teachings I've read he is 100% Mayahana.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby plwk » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:47 am

There was an old thread on the now defunct E-Sangha as I recall which had a similar topic and some posters were saying that many of these alleged sayings and quotes that are propped up even on sites promoting the late Master's teachings are 'unverifiable' and best to contact the main monastery site to confirm these attributed statements' veracity and under what context. Site is http://cttbusa.org/

Another related on the issue is an infamous booklet distributed in my part of the world is found here

Uh huseng, have you forgotten that Master Hsuan Hua has strong Confucian/Chinese cultural values in him? It's not uncommon for the Chinese with traditional background in Confucian mores to remark or even think of 'Heaven' as an agent of check and balance...
Last edited by plwk on Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Indrajala » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:48 am

Blue Garuda wrote:There are many threads about the topic, but I haven't seen anything conclusively linked to Shakyamuni.


There is Abhidharma literature which states oral and anal sex constitute sexual misconduct.

Curiously these same prohibitions exist in ancient Indian law texts like the Arthaśāstra from a similar if not the same time period.

I -suspect- the Abhidharma authors felt compelled to go along with the Brahministic line of thought given the law codes which likewise said anything but vaginal intercourse was prohibited.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Lotus415 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:53 am

plwk wrote:There was an old thread on the now defunct E-Sangha as I recall which had a similar topic and some posters were saying that many of these alleged sayings and quotes that are propped up even on sites promoting the late Master's teachings are 'unverifiable' and best to contact the main monastery site to confirm these attributed statements' veracity and under what context. Site is http://cttbusa.org/

Another related on the issue is an infamous booklet distributed in my part of the world is found here

Uh huseng, have you forgotten that Master Hsuan Hua has strong Confucian/Chinese cultural values in him? It's not uncommon for the Chinese with traditional background in Confucian mores to remark or even think of 'Heaven' as an agent of check and balance...


The official cttb website mentions homosexuality as sexual misconduct and results in birth in the lower realms.
http://www.cttbusa.org/buddhism_brief_i ... apter3.asp
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:07 am

Andrew108 wrote:But his idea of dharma was really scary:

''How should we cultivate? We must first let go of our desires and put and end to love'


I can already hear the fiddle and the drums, and see the glint of the steel.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby plwk » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:07 am

Yeah I am aware of that but in my interactions with them, even their members are open to varied interpretations on this issue, though most would give me the usual drivel but some of those members I know are gays and lesbians but they choose not to highlight their sexuality openly and I respect them for that. Have you actually conversed with the people there, both monastics and laity as I have on this issue, even though I am not their member?

The Elder Master Ven Heng Sure has a blog of his own. Maybe you can contact him via a personal message and see what is his interpretation?
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby Astus » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:27 am

As far as I know, Ven. Hsuan Hua did not speak English and his primary audience was ethnic Chinese people. Since Buddhism in Asian countries is as conservative and traditional as Christianity in Western cultures, these views are not that strange then. Of course, this is not an excuse, but simply a possible explanation.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby gyougan » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:48 am

One more proof that true Buddhist masters are nearly extinct.
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Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:24 am

gyougan wrote:One more proof that true Buddhist masters are nearly extinct.


Interesting. Do you think that Buddhist teachers of the past didn't hold such views? That they were on the whole freer from prejudice and everyday misconceptions than the contemporary ones are?
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