Issues with going on retreat.

[Andrew108]

They would think that the spiritual journey is additive. Which ironically goes against the intention of renunciation.

[Will]

As for 'doubts' Jeff - that is what vows are for. Consider Peixiu's comments:

I'm not confident enough with myself to think my petty attempts at bodhicitta, aspirations and dharma will spare me the lower realms.

As Ajahn Brahm has said, karma is where you get what you deserve.

I can only hope on the far side of death I end up with agreeable circumstances.

I am in a similar boat - but I do have full confidence that the karmic fruit of bodhicitta vows, if sincere, will always pull me in the Dharmic direction. Intention (cetana) IS karma, so power up your vows & aspirations and be assured that they will keep you on the right road - rocky though it may be.

[muni]

Bodhichitta? When a poster gets a shower over his head like drunken ones acting in a bar!
Declining? Please put those sharing Dharma in a corner so that they can go on with their rubbish! Not all can search on internet and came to read here. Many offered Dharma teachings I never saw on internet, so very grateful. Stupid isn't?

Why is there PM possibilities? It had been possible to just talk and find a respectful solution.

[Malcolm]

Malcolm: Renunciation is not a cause for liberation.

Baloney. Virtually every other spiritual tradition agrees with Buddha, that non-attachment or renunciation is a critical element on the path to liberation.

Non-attachment aka freedom from grasping on the one hand, and renunciation on the other are very different.

The former is liberation; the latter is not, and does not necessarily lead to the former.

[Will]

Malcolm: Renunciation is not a cause for liberation.

Baloney. Virtually every other spiritual tradition agrees with Buddha, that non-attachment or renunciation is a critical element on the path to liberation.

Non-attachment aka freedom from grasping on the one hand, and renunciation on the other are very different.

The former is liberation; the latter is not, and does not necessarily lead to the former.

I win the bet with myself - M. will define a BIG difference between renunciation & non-attachment.

My understanding is that they are identical mental states. Is it possible to 'renounce' physical things and still crave -- surely -- no surprise there. That is why I added non-attachment to clarify to anyone who might think only physical tossing away was meant. Guess I have no skillful teaching abilities.

[Josef]

I win the bet with myself - M. will define a BIG difference between renunciation & non-attachment.

My understanding is that they are identical mental states.

To renounce is to abandon or reject something. To give up or abandon.
This is fine from the Sutra point of view but it is not the path of Vajrayana and Dzogchen.
There is a significant difference between renunciation and non-attachment.

[Will]

I will not quibble Josef. If you think there is real difference - so be it. I have renounced attachment to definitional fussiness.

[gyougan]

We think of securing ourselves financially before engaging in serious practice for fear that we'll go hungry if we don't. We think in terms of money, nor merit.

This is so true it hurts...

... and that's exactly why we need forms of Buddhism that can be practiced anywhere even the in the midst of worst madness of today's crazy society.

Mahayana Buddhism has failed totally if liberation is possible only by leaving the secular world and going to the mountains.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Point well taken.

Ahh, the eternal temptation to drop everything and go shut oneself off and away, far, far away in some hideout that humankind has all but completely forgotten - and there abandon oneself totally and unconditionally to practice and only practice.

A nice escapist dream.

[dharmagoat]

A nice escapist dream.

Until you go there and try doing it.

[treehuggingoctopus]

A nice escapist dream.

Until you go there and try doing it.

Then hopefully you realize there you've been deluding yourself all along.

[dharmagoat]

A nice escapist dream.

Until you go there and try doing it.

Then hopefully you realize there you've been deluding yourself all along.

And practice anyway.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Until you go there and try doing it.

Then hopefully you realize there you've been deluding yourself all along.

And practice anyway.

Fingers crossed.

Btw, before anyone feels offended: I was thinking of myself as much as of others. If it's undoubtedly an escapist dream, it's just as undoubtedly one that keeps tormenting me as well.

[dharmagoat]

Ahh, the eternal temptation to drop everything and go shut oneself off and away, far, far away in some hideout that humankind has all but completely forgotten - and there abandon oneself totally and unconditionally to practice and only practice.

A nice escapist dream.

I have been dreaming this for decades. Only recently have I discovered how unrealistic it is. Many times I have had the opportunity to practice like this, only to discover how difficult it is to actually see it through. Since abandoning lofty aspirations, my practice has developed naturally to fill the space in my regular life that I have left for it. It is my experience that Buddhist practice becomes more inaccessible the more it is idealised. No problem if you are a Buddha.

[Nemo]

It's very realistic when you are young and have no ties. Even a crusty bastard like me has taken a few years out of his life for retreat. Admitting that your need for comfort and security is greater than your spiritual aspirations is more honest than saying it is an escapist dream. People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.

[dharmagoat]

It's very realistic when you are young and have no ties. Even a crusty bastard like me has taken a few years out of his life for retreat. Admitting that your need for comfort and security is greater than your spiritual aspirations is more honest than saying it is an escapist dream. People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.

My point is that I compromised my practice by setting unrealistic goals. Also, by appoaching practice as something sacred, I divorced it from my ordinary life. I am happy to have (what you describe as) low standards if it means that my practice can become a natural extension of my daily life, instead of remaining some over-glorified pipe dream. Your mileage may differ.

[Malcolm]

It's very realistic when you are young and have no ties. Even a crusty bastard like me has taken a few years out of his life for retreat. Admitting that your need for comfort and security is greater than your spiritual aspirations is more honest than saying it is an escapist dream. People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.

Everyone has to discover their limitations and practice withing those. When you know what your limitations are, then liberation is very possible, even if you like money, comfort and security.

M

[Virgo]

It's very realistic when you are young and have no ties. Even a crusty bastard like me has taken a few years out of his life for retreat. Admitting that your need for comfort and security is greater than your spiritual aspirations is more honest than saying it is an escapist dream. People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.

My point is that I compromised my practice by setting unrealistic goals. Also, by appoaching practice as something sacred, I divorced it from my ordinary life. I am happy to have (what you describe as) low standards if it means that my practice can become a natural extension of my daily life, instead of remaining some over-glorified pipe dream. Your mileage may differ.

You should really practice Dzogchen if your limited for time.

Kevin

[Virgo]

People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.

That's right. Because we all want to be big Rock Stars.

And that's fine, because it's a natural expression of our enlightened qualities.

[dharmagoat]

Because we all want to be big Rock Stars.

And that's fine, because it's a natural expression of our enlightened qualities.

Buddha was a Rock Star?