Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:44 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm
Posts: 1502
They would think that the spiritual journey is additive. Which ironically goes against the intention of renunciation.

_________________
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:18 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
Huseng wrote:
Will wrote:
As for 'doubts' Jeff - that is what vows are for. Consider Peixiu's comments:


I'm not confident enough with myself to think my petty attempts at bodhicitta, aspirations and dharma will spare me the lower realms.

As Ajahn Brahm has said, karma is where you get what you deserve.

I can only hope on the far side of death I end up with agreeable circumstances.


I am in a similar boat - but I do have full confidence that the karmic fruit of bodhicitta vows, if sincere, will always pull me in the Dharmic direction. Intention (cetana) IS karma, so power up your vows & aspirations and be assured that they will keep you on the right road - rocky though it may be.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am
Posts: 3043
Bodhichitta? When a poster gets a shower over his head like drunken ones acting in a bar!
Declining? Please put those sharing Dharma in a corner so that they can go on with their rubbish! Not all can search on internet and came to read here. Many offered Dharma teachings I never saw on internet, so very grateful. Stupid isn't?

Why is there PM possibilities? It had been possible to just talk and find a respectful solution.

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG_lNuNUVd4


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Will wrote:
Quote:
Malcolm: Renunciation is not a cause for liberation.


Baloney. Virtually every other spiritual tradition agrees with Buddha, that non-attachment or renunciation is a critical element on the path to liberation.


Non-attachment aka freedom from grasping on the one hand, and renunciation on the other are very different.

The former is liberation; the latter is not, and does not necessarily lead to the former.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:02 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
Malcolm wrote:
Will wrote:
Quote:
Malcolm: Renunciation is not a cause for liberation.


Baloney. Virtually every other spiritual tradition agrees with Buddha, that non-attachment or renunciation is a critical element on the path to liberation.


Non-attachment aka freedom from grasping on the one hand, and renunciation on the other are very different.

The former is liberation; the latter is not, and does not necessarily lead to the former.


I win the bet with myself - M. will define a BIG difference between renunciation & non-attachment.

My understanding is that they are identical mental states. Is it possible to 'renounce' physical things and still crave -- surely -- no surprise there. That is why I added non-attachment to clarify to anyone who might think only physical tossing away was meant. Guess I have no skillful teaching abilities.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Posts: 1565
Will wrote:

I win the bet with myself - M. will define a BIG difference between renunciation & non-attachment.

My understanding is that they are identical mental states.


To renounce is to abandon or reject something. To give up or abandon.
This is fine from the Sutra point of view but it is not the path of Vajrayana and Dzogchen.
There is a significant difference between renunciation and non-attachment.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:45 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1953
I will not quibble Josef. If you think there is real difference - so be it. I have renounced attachment to definitional fussiness.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:37 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Huseng wrote:
We think of securing ourselves financially before engaging in serious practice for fear that we'll go hungry if we don't. We think in terms of money, nor merit.


This is so true it hurts...

... and that's exactly why we need forms of Buddhism that can be practiced anywhere even the in the midst of worst madness of today's crazy society.

Mahayana Buddhism has failed totally if liberation is possible only by leaving the secular world and going to the mountains.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Posts: 639
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.
Point well taken.

Ahh, the eternal temptation to drop everything and go shut oneself off and away, far, far away in some hideout that humankind has all but completely forgotten - and there abandon oneself totally and unconditionally to practice and only practice.

A nice escapist dream.

_________________
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Posts: 1270
Location: Gone Bush
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
A nice escapist dream.

Until you go there and try doing it.

_________________
May all beings be happy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Posts: 639
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.
dharmagoat wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
A nice escapist dream.

Until you go there and try doing it.


Then hopefully you realize there you've been deluding yourself all along.

_________________
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Posts: 1270
Location: Gone Bush
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
A nice escapist dream.

Until you go there and try doing it.

Then hopefully you realize there you've been deluding yourself all along.

And practice anyway.

_________________
May all beings be happy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Posts: 639
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.
dharmagoat wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
Until you go there and try doing it.

Then hopefully you realize there you've been deluding yourself all along.

And practice anyway.


Fingers crossed.

Btw, before anyone feels offended: I was thinking of myself as much as of others. If it's undoubtedly an escapist dream, it's just as undoubtedly one that keeps tormenting me as well.

_________________
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Posts: 1270
Location: Gone Bush
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Ahh, the eternal temptation to drop everything and go shut oneself off and away, far, far away in some hideout that humankind has all but completely forgotten - and there abandon oneself totally and unconditionally to practice and only practice.

A nice escapist dream.

I have been dreaming this for decades. Only recently have I discovered how unrealistic it is. Many times I have had the opportunity to practice like this, only to discover how difficult it is to actually see it through. Since abandoning lofty aspirations, my practice has developed naturally to fill the space in my regular life that I have left for it. It is my experience that Buddhist practice becomes more inaccessible the more it is idealised. No problem if you are a Buddha.

_________________
May all beings be happy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Posts: 682
Location: Canada
It's very realistic when you are young and have no ties. Even a crusty bastard like me has taken a few years out of his life for retreat. Admitting that your need for comfort and security is greater than your spiritual aspirations is more honest than saying it is an escapist dream. People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Posts: 1270
Location: Gone Bush
Nemo wrote:
It's very realistic when you are young and have no ties. Even a crusty bastard like me has taken a few years out of his life for retreat. Admitting that your need for comfort and security is greater than your spiritual aspirations is more honest than saying it is an escapist dream. People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.

My point is that I compromised my practice by setting unrealistic goals. Also, by appoaching practice as something sacred, I divorced it from my ordinary life. I am happy to have (what you describe as) low standards if it means that my practice can become a natural extension of my daily life, instead of remaining some over-glorified pipe dream. Your mileage may differ.

_________________
May all beings be happy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Nemo wrote:
It's very realistic when you are young and have no ties. Even a crusty bastard like me has taken a few years out of his life for retreat. Admitting that your need for comfort and security is greater than your spiritual aspirations is more honest than saying it is an escapist dream. People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.



Everyone has to discover their limitations and practice withing those. When you know what your limitations are, then liberation is very possible, even if you like money, comfort and security.

M

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Posts: 1434
Location: Globe
dharmagoat wrote:
Nemo wrote:
It's very realistic when you are young and have no ties. Even a crusty bastard like me has taken a few years out of his life for retreat. Admitting that your need for comfort and security is greater than your spiritual aspirations is more honest than saying it is an escapist dream. People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.

My point is that I compromised my practice by setting unrealistic goals. Also, by appoaching practice as something sacred, I divorced it from my ordinary life. I am happy to have (what you describe as) low standards if it means that my practice can become a natural extension of my daily life, instead of remaining some over-glorified pipe dream. Your mileage may differ.


You should really practice Dzogchen if your limited for time.

Kevin

_________________
ओं मणिपद्मे हूं

http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Posts: 1434
Location: Globe
Nemo wrote:
People love money and worldly life more than Dharma. It sounds like you are trying to comfort yourself by thinking everyone has your low standards.


That's right. Because we all want to be big Rock Stars.

And that's fine, because it's a natural expression of our enlightened qualities.


_________________
ओं मणिपद्मे हूं

http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Posts: 1270
Location: Gone Bush
Virgo wrote:
Because we all want to be big Rock Stars.

And that's fine, because it's a natural expression of our enlightened qualities.

Buddha was a Rock Star?

_________________
May all beings be happy


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: conebeckham, Dan74, Inge, yan kong and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group