Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

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Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:09 pm

Jikan wrote:Related question that Malcolm is particularly well positioned to address:

in the volume Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, it's claimed that Vasubhandu's cosmology shares a common origin with Bonpo teachings. Is this a plausible claim? If so, does it contradict the claim that it derives from the Sarvastivada school? Or does it follow that the Bonpo tradition may share a common origin with the Sarvastivada school also?


This is because the so called Bonpo Abhidharma, the Srid pa'i Mdzod Phug (revealed and written down by Shenchen Luga http://www.thlib.org/?wiki=/access/wiki/site/679c2e7e-ca49-462b-0038-a5e0534b709f/biography%20of%20shenchen%20luga.html (996-1035) in 1017) is held by the Bonpos to have been taught by Tonpa Shenrab. Tonpa Shenrab lived much earlier than Vasubandhu and the Buddha. There are some passages in the mDzod phug that are shared with the Kosha, but not very many, actually. But the Meru Cosmology etc., is basically the same. Therefore, the Bonpos claim the Mdzod phug influenced Buddhist cosmology.

Most modern scholars believe that the Mdzod Phug was partially influenced by the Kosha. However, the Mdzod Phug has a great deal of material in it that indicates it was also highly influenced by Dzogchen and so on. The materials in it are rich and have not been studiedvery much. The text is often incorrectly dismissed as a copy of the Buddhist Abhidharmakosha but it is nothing of the sort.

I studied one chapter of it recently, the chapter on the five elements with Dranpa Namkhai's commentary, and found it to be an amazing text of much interest, much more interesting in many respects than Vasubandhu's Kosha for someone who is practicing Dzogchen.

Dan Martin has done a lot of interesting analysis of the root text, but not so much on the commentary. Both texts, the root and the commentary were produced/revealed at the same time, in 1017.

M
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Jikan » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:52 pm

Great stuff Malcolm, thanks!
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:The text is often incorrectly dismissed as a copy of the Buddhist Abhidharmakosha but it is nothing of the sort.


It lifts entire passages wholesale. There was no Dzogchen at the time of Vasubhandu.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:49 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The text is often incorrectly dismissed as a copy of the Buddhist Abhidharmakosha but it is nothing of the sort.


It lifts entire passages wholesale.


Dan Martin analyzed the whole text. You need to read this if you are interested:

Comparing Treasuries: Mental states and Mdzod phug lists and passages with parallels in Abhidharma works by Vasubandhu and Asanga, or in Prajñāpāramitra sūtras: A progress report

http://ir.minpaku.ac.jp/dspace/bitstrea ... 15_004.pdf

There was no Dzogchen at the time of Vasubhandu.


That merely serves to show how interesting the Mdzod phug is.

Incidentally, I made an error, the commentary of the Mdzod phug was produced about a century later.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Virgo » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:02 pm

Hey Malcolm, is this text available in English? I would love to read it.

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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby catmoon » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:56 am

:offtopic:

We're getting complaints about off topic posts in this thread.

If you would like to discuss other things, kindly start another thread for it.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby ratna » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:22 pm

I studied one chapter of it recently, the chapter on the five elements with Dranpa Namkhai's commentary, and found it to be an amazing text of much interest, much more interesting in many respects than Vasubandhu's Kosha for someone who is practicing Dzogchen.


I'd appreciate if you elaborated on this.

BTW, could you give a TBRC reference for the commentary?

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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Indrajala » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:30 pm

I removed the bulk of this thread because it derailed.

Please keep to discussing Srid pa'i Mdzod Phug and the Kosha in a polite and reasonable manner. There is no need to refer to it using a "laugh test".

Criticism is fine, but make sure it is backed up with facts and please stay on topic.

Most importantly please remain polite. No need for sarcasm.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:34 pm

My apologies:

So Malcolm, what's so special about this text that makes it useful vis a vis the Kosha? I get that it has interesting anthropological interest. The OP was about whether the Kosha was influenced by the Mdzog phug. I think that notion can be very easily laid to waste considering the Kosha predates the Mdzog phug by 600 years. This is what prompted me to opine that LTN's assertion that Vasubandhu was influenced by Bon is unfounded, and also calls into question most of Bon's account of how it got Buddhism. His mastery of the methods notwithstanding.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:48 pm

deepbluehum wrote:My apologies:

So Malcolm, what's so special about this text that makes it useful vis a vis the Kosha? .


It is directly connected with Dzogchen practice.

Even if you take the position it is a pseudographia, it was produced by a realized Dzogchen master, Shenchen Luga, etc. So the teachings of Dzogchen permeate it.

It has interesting and detailed accounts of the dharmadhātu, wisdoms, etc.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:00 pm

ratna wrote:
I studied one chapter of it recently, the chapter on the five elements with Dranpa Namkhai's commentary, and found it to be an amazing text of much interest, much more interesting in many respects than Vasubandhu's Kosha for someone who is practicing Dzogchen.


I'd appreciate if you elaborated on this.

BTW, could you give a TBRC reference for the commentary?

R


The basic verses and the commentary were published by LTN in 1966.I have an original copy of that which is miraculously still in one piece.

The tbrc number for a later commentary is W23426.

Unfortunately LTN's edition Mdzod Phug: Basic Verses is not available through TBRC. I am just lucky to have acquired a copy from Saujanya books in India some years ago.

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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby ratna » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:09 pm

Thanks!
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:41 pm

Huseng wrote:I removed the bulk of this thread because it derailed.

Please keep to discussing Srid pa'i Mdzod Phug and the Kosha in a polite and reasonable manner. There is no need to refer to it using a "laugh test".

Criticism is fine, but make sure it is backed up with facts and please stay on topic.

Most importantly please remain polite. No need for sarcasm.


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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:My apologies:

So Malcolm, what's so special about this text that makes it useful vis a vis the Kosha? .


It is directly connected with Dzogchen practice.

Even if you take the position it is a pseudographia, it was produced by a realized Dzogchen master, Shenchen Luga, etc. So the teachings of Dzogchen permeate it.

It has interesting and detailed accounts of the dharmadhātu, wisdoms, etc.


This has really nothing to do with the Kosha. The issue becomes how is the Mdzog phug an interesting text vis a vis Dzogchen.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:09 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:My apologies:

So Malcolm, what's so special about this text that makes it useful vis a vis the Kosha? .


It is directly connected with Dzogchen practice.

Even if you take the position it is a pseudographia, it was produced by a realized Dzogchen master, Shenchen Luga, etc. So the teachings of Dzogchen permeate it.

It has interesting and detailed accounts of the dharmadhātu, wisdoms, etc.


This has really nothing to do with the Kosha. The issue becomes how is the Mdzog phug an interesting text vis a vis Dzogchen.



The Mdzod phug itself really has nothing to with the Kosha, apart from cribbing a few passages here and there (which Buddhists make a big fuss about, at the expense of the rest of the text).
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:23 pm

Okie. I accept that. What generated Jikan's interest was LTN's statement in "Heartdrops" that Vasubandhu got his cosmology from Bon. What's that about?
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Virgo » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:34 am

deepbluehum wrote:Okie. I accept that. What generated Jikan's interest was LTN's statement in "Heartdrops" that Vasubandhu got his cosmology from Bon. What's that about?
Hum, I am not attacking you so don't take it the wrong way, but seriously? You think cosmology has importance when it means next to nothing because no matter what our ideas about the universe are we are always standing where we are (more important are astrology and so on) but think Abhidharma is of little importance? Abhidharmas are specific, detailed teachings on the mind, matter, sense bases, etc., etc., That is important (granted not so much in Dzogchen and so on). Not the cosmology so much.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Jikan » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:37 am

I was interested in the cosmology as a historical & cultural artifact. That's why I asked about it, and to that extent I hope it's relevant to the discussion.
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Virgo » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:39 am

Jikan wrote:I was interested in the cosmology as a historical & cultural artifact. That's why I asked about it, and to that extent I hope it's relevant to the discussion.

Any question any one has is relevant. And there is no doubt that cosmology hasa definite importance, but hum seemed to put down Abhidharmas in an earlier post and is more interested in cosmology. Why, I am not quite sure.

Kevin
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Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Postby Jikan » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:40 am

Oh, I see. Looks like I misread your earlier post, Kevin.
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