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SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:55 am


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Sylvester » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:11 am

Gasp! You saw fit to print Gombrich's critique of the Commentary? :jumping:

In fact, his point about "sara" meaning "word" instead of stream, adds yet another connection. No words, implies no papanca. Nippapañcañca - another synonym for Nibbana from SN 43.14-43 (Anasavadi Sutta) which I discussed earlier on anidassana being a synonym for Nibbana.

Sorry if my discussion of SN 1.27 is so obtuse. I was just trying to show that the alternative answer to SN 1.27 is nothing more than viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, and that SN 1.27's questions must imply that "viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" = consciousness (is) not manifest = consciousness ceased.

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:21 am


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Sylvester » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:43 am

And but for the fine balance of liberality and fidelity shown by the Mods here, I would have been labelled heretical long ago.

:anjali:

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:41 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Sylvester » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:11 pm

An eminently workable translation, as long as it does not entail an eternal contact-less consciousness.

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby robertk » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:18 pm

The phase viññanam anidassanam has been explained by the pali attakattha and tika. Suan Lu zwa, a Burmese pali scholar writes:

"Tattha viññatabbanti "Viññanam" nibbanassetam namam,.."

"There, to be known specially, so (it is) "Viññanam". This is the name of nibbana."

And Kevatta Sutta Tika further explains the phrase "viññatabbanti" as follows:

"Viññatabbanti visitthena ñatabbam, ñanuttamena ariyamaggañanena paccakkhato janitabbanti attho, tenaha "nibbanassetam namam"ti."

"(To be known specially) means to be extraordinarily known. The meaning is 'to be known in the sense of realization by ultimate wisdom, by noble path wisdom'". Therefore, (the commentator) stated that 'This is the name of nibbana'" Therefore, the term 'Viññanam' in the line of the original Pali verse "Viññanam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham .." does not refer to consciousness, the usual meaning of viññanam.
In fact, the same verse includes the following two lines "Ettha namañca rupañca, asesam uparujjhati
Viññanassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhati'ti". "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." Nibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of its Pali names happens to be Viññanam. In English language, the term 'object' can have different meanings. For example, the term 'object' in visual object has no relation to
the term 'object' in my object of studting Pali."" endquote Suan

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:28 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:08 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:43 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:52 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:01 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:15 pm


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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:25 pm

Hi Mike

Well if "mind" means this: (posted by Tilt earlier)

"But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another."

Then I do not see how, by using that, we get to Ajahn Chah's distinction between "transient states" and "the mind itself." The above definition would seem to cover only the "transient states" part.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:29 pm

Hi Kirk,

But the Suttas do speak of "mind and mind objects". Whether "mind" is something constant or not is a different question that doesn't seem to me to affect Ajahn Chah's statement. Like Geoff, I wouldn't try to read metaphysics into such statements.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:33 pm

Greetings Geoff,

Thanks for sharing that Ajahn Chah quote... what a star.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:58 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:07 pm

Hi Kirk,

I don't have the reference handy but Ajhan Maha Bua does say in one of his books that his terminology and descriptions are non-standard (as many others would also point out!).

That doesn't necessarily mean that he's wrong, he's presumably describing his experience, but it does means that trying to reconcile his statements with Suttas is bound to be problematical. Perhaps a discussion about that would be better in another section of the Forum.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:12 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All

Postby Nyana » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 am



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