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karmic cause of schizophrenia - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

karmic cause of schizophrenia

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Jhana4
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby Jhana4 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:34 pm

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby silentone » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:28 pm

I will continue discussions about the nature of Cannabis in private.

On a side note though... Karma is a relative thing.

What can you really say the karmic implications of Schizophrenia are?

Some schizophrenics have blinding insight into the universe. Ever see the movie "A Beautiful Mind" ?

People with OCD generally score much higher on IQ tests than those that don't have it.

A quick review of some of the greatest scholars and scientists in our history reveal... quite a few psychological "maladies". However, would we, or even they, be better off without them?

Is it a blessing or a curse? If I had the choice to come back without OCD would I?

I'm not sure honestly, that I would give up the insight I have into the world as a result of it. Who knows. Thats for my next life!?!? :)

I know that my small suffering in this life has given me insight into the suffering of others. I know that I wouldn't trade that insight for anything.
If it pushes me to helping others, haven't I accomplished enough? There are no freebies in life.
Perhaps in some golden moment of conception I chose to be this way, or brought it on myself... I know its made me a better person for having it.

Jhana4
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:27 am

In college I knew a lot of pot smokers. Different people handled it differently. Some led very productive lives and used it on the weekends like some people went out for drinks. Other people became lost with it. Individual mileage varies. Maybe it works for you and fits into your life, whereas others it just makes a bad problem worse.

I can understand why you don't want to talk about it and get into an argument on a web board.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

pegembara
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby pegembara » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:58 pm

Just a comment.
Silent tone used cannabis for his OCD, not as an intoxicant but to make his mind clearer. Isn't psychiatric drugs mind altering too ? If they weren't they would be no different from placebo.
Having said that, using cannabis on healthy minds for recreation is an entirely different proposition.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:47 pm

No ones mind is made clearer by cannabis or alcohol.
At best one might experience some temporary relief from the kind of pressure of thought, heightened affect, and hypervigilence that is part of the predisposing factors that manifest as OCD....but there are other ways to achieve this that do not breach the 5th precept.

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altar
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby altar » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:39 pm

Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 3.103 Lamentation
‘This, monks, is reckoned to be lamentation in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, singing. This is reckoned as causing madness in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, dancing. This is reckoned as childishness in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, immoderate laughter that displays the teeth.
Wherefore, monks, away with the bridge that leads to singing and dancing! Enough for you, if you are pleased righteously, to smile just to show your pleasure.’

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:43 pm

Hi Peter

I think in silentone's case it's not a breach of the 5th precept as the cannabis acts as a medication. Other medications also alter the mind and may be adictive. He experiemented with other medication and it didn't work so I don't see any problem with going with cannabis. However, I don't see that as conductive to good meditation.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:57 pm

I think that you are not only wrong, but that you are condoning a behaviour that you do not appreciate the full implications of.
I see cannabis casualties, including those who self medicate, all the time.

There is at least one forum member who had he heeded warning about his cannabis use would possibly not now be in dire straights.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:17 pm

From what I understood, you are a mental health professional so you are much more knowlegeable than me in this area.

My only point in the previous post is that if a substance acts as a medication and really works better than others, it should not be considered a breach of the 5th precept to take that substance.

Besides, doesn't medication for OCD also correlate with suicide? I have suffered imensely because of cannabis use (so I'm quite aware of the consequences of the drug), but if people are not susceptible to the same suffering I've passed, I don't see nothing wrong with making cannabis a medication.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:35 pm

Modus..I would strongly advise against taking the evaluation of a pothead as to the consequences of, and reasons for, doing pot. This discussion is taking place in the context of a forum for discussion of the teaching of the Buddha, and there is no justification for breaching the fifth precept. Especially not self medication by someone whose judgement is invariably going to be clouded.

tamdrin
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby tamdrin » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:09 pm


Jhana4
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:28 pm

I've known a lot of pot users in my life. In my un-expert opinion, pot effects most people the same way, but it doesn't effect everyone the same way. That seems to be a point a lot of people in this thread do not want to accept.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:49 pm


silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:02 am

Peter, may I ask what your experiences with mental disorders include?

It might help me to understand your position. If you do not mind sharing. I shared my experiences, but If you are not comfortable I understand :)
I don't mean necessarily in relation to a certain type of medication or whether or not a medical practice is valid. I am curious about what contact you have had with someone who has been hospitalised for panic disorder or schizophrenia.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:59 am

Last edited by silentone on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 20 times in total.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:07 am


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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby Annapurna » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:40 pm

I skipped a LOT of posts here....but I read something about self medication and OCD.

This is interesting, because recently on TV, a patient of Tourette syndrome was shown, who is getting Cannabis as a medication.

Tourette syndrome patients have compulsive ticks, grimaces and curses, and this patient is next to symptom free, if he can keep his cannabis level.

For this purpose, he must have Cannabis with him, and sometimes, he has to smoke in public places.

When this occaion arises, he approaches a policeman, if one is nearby, and shows his prescription, and asks for permission to use his medicine.

Which is never a problem.

Done in this way, I find Cannabis medication helpful, and no breach of the precept.

IF a patient of OCD could find a doctor who is a legal support here, the thing is lifted on another level than drug abuse, poorly cloaked as self medication, and of course, anybody's drug consumption is not my biz.

It's only my biz when I am involved wiht that person and suffering from the abuse.

On the other hand, I know a lot of Cannabis users, and most of them are addicted, their behaviour is poor, shows frequent mood swings and agressiveness, coupled with paranoia, panic attacks, "written sick times", unemployment, social decline, and so forth.

And others seem their normal self.

I stay away from drugs.

My drugs are food.

I think we can steer our well being and even our moods by the chemistry we eat, not only by the one we smoke.

There is "feel-good" food, definitely, and I think a lot of "psychological cases" could receive help from an individual and properly balanced diet.

If an inner balance is there, nobody wants to mess it up with drugs...

Like someone else said, I need to get paid for drinking, as it leaves me stupid for hours, with my body buzzing, and all I do is wait around til it wears off.

Of course I have a lot of natural stupidity without alcohol as well! :smile:
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby PeterB » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:57 pm

I dont know the situation in the US Anna but no medic in Europe would ever prescribe cannabis for OCD.
Quite the reverse, we spend a good deal of time weaning people with a range of conditions including OCD OFF cannabis.

In a proportion of cases they then become symptom free with no further intervention.

But I know better than to debate with users.

Edit: remove pejorative expression. Mike

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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby Annapurna » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:33 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Postby silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:02 pm

Peter, I understand where you are coming from. I understand that you want to help people. I applaud that effort :)

From my perspective :

The problem with many of these disorders, it is difficult in the early years of research to flush out differences in causation and correlation.

Many people with very severe disorders will try to self medicate, because they do not understand that they have a disorder. They experiment with one thing that they interpret as providing some sort of relief...but its usually not just one substance.

As a result, any study that goes back and looks at this individual can ask them "did you use Y or Z" and if they answer yes, then their behavior becomes correlated to that drug. It doesn't mean that all drugs are good or bad... just that multivariable analysis is usually needed to separate risk factors.

To study complicated psychological problems and abuse, it is very important to take into account other confounding social indicators. For instance, poor people with mental disorders tend to experiment more and have a larger poly drug history because they have less access to legitimate medical treatment. They are also less likely to have people in their life that can accurately diagnose and help them. So, the problem is that there is never a single correlation, but rather a multiplicity of them which must be waded through.

Say for instance Paxil grew on a plant rather than a drug store. How many people would show a correlation between depression and Paxil ? How many people that couldn't get prozac, would find the paxil and begin using it. People that are poor often times have the worse break downs because they under more stress, have poor nutrition (VERY iMPORTANT), have fewer people in their immediate family they can rely on... etc... as a result anything they have touched becomes amplified in correlation studies.

People that have learning disabilities, people that have had consistent failures at school, are also more likely to suffer from feelings of depression, to blame themselves. This pain is something they will try to fix regardless. I have a family member that used pot, and he never had anywhere near the level of academic success I did. His problems started LONG before marijuana though, and it was only after a lot of intensive study by my relatives, that they learned he had a disability - dyslexia!

His grades are now MUCH higher thanks to the fact that he saw people licensed to help him overcome this disability. I'm sure that if he had a drug test and they saw the weed, they would have blamed his poor behavior and his failures on the drug. I doubt they would have looked much further into the root of his problems and actually ascertained what was making him feel so negative and angry towards himself. Fortunately my family's love was both methodical and consistent for him during this time.

The problem with turning a drug into "thing" that we blame for social problems, is that it doesn't allow us to see clearly what is going on with a person. We are inevitably using previous judgements to say "ahh this must be the root of the problem"... people are NEVER that simple. Certainly there are some drugs that will never have legitimate practice in psychotherapy (methamphetamine comes to mind, though it might be useful in treating immediate damage from heart attack stroke in emergency room settings). Everything that goes into the body will effect the mind. Some models of addiction include eating disorders like anorexia. Some people have theorized that the behavior to starve one's self can become addictive... the endorphins released from lower blood sugar levels actually drive the person to continue to continue the behavior like a drug! How many times when you fast do you get a sort of speedy feeling in your gut? The body releases chemicals to help your body deal with the starvation, and these are also mind altering. Would people that fast too frequently be considered drug users? I have heard psychologists in this country argue just that.

I would encourage people to look at how far psychology has come in the last 50 years. 30+ years ago Autism was labelled as "infantile schizophrenia" ... Watch the story of Temple Grandin ( a noted scientist with Autism), and you can see in just one instance, how much our understanding of variant psychological states has changed in just a few decades. They locked those children up in institutions, and most of them never even learned to talk. Fortunately, Temple Grandin's mother would have none of this, taught her daughter to read and write, helped her get multiple scientific degrees, and her success sparked a complete reversal in the practice of psychology and psychiatry.

You can tell a person not to be heedless... but each person has a different head and a different mind so only they are going to know what this looks like.
Buddhism I understand encourages a person to understand the fundamental difference between conventional truth and absolute truth.

Conventionally, drugs aren't that great on people. In absolute terms, a human's life is a process of mediating between many different ideals. Healthcare professionals are a necessity in this process, but the ultimate test of peace, doesn't come from an institution and they shouldn't be relied upon as a source of absolute knowledge.

Compassion is more than just a virtue. It is the perfection of wisdom.
Last edited by silentone on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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