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 Post subject: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:36 pm 
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When tadyatha appears in the middle of a mantra, what is its function? It seems to be dividing the mantra into 2 parts. For example, in the long medicine Buddha mantra and the Cundi mantra:


namaḥ saptānāṁ samyak-saṁbuddha koṭīnāṁ
tad-yathā oṁ cale cule cundi svāhā

namo bhagavate bhaiṣajyaguru
vaiḍūryaprabharājāya tathāgatāya
arhate samyaksambuddhāya tadyathā:
oṃ bhaiṣajye bhaiṣajye mahābhaiṣajya-samudgate svāhā


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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:15 pm 
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dakini_boi wrote:

namo bhagavate bhaiṣajyaguru
vaiḍūryaprabharājāya tathāgatāya
arhate samyaksambuddhāya tadyathā:
oṃ bhaiṣajye bhaiṣajye mahābhaiṣajya-samudgate svāhā


RIght, the first part is a praise, "Homage to the Bhagavan Bhaisajyaraguru Vaiduryaprabharaja, a tathagata, an arhat, a samyaksambuddha", followed by his mantra, thus, om....etc.

but typically we recite all together.

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:26 pm 
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I'd read that it roughly means "like this/this way/speak this/proclaim this". It also seems to be debated about quite a bit.

Gassho,
Seishin

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Thank you both.

So, grammatically, does the tadyatha signify that the praise is made by means of the mantra? i.e., "Praise to so and so - [make the praise] like this: Om. . . "


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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:19 pm 
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dakini_boi wrote:
Thank you both.

So, grammatically, does the tadyatha signify that the praise is made by means of the mantra? i.e., "Praise to so and so - [make the praise] like this: Om. . . "


Tadyatha is made of two words tad yatha, "as follows here":

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:51 am 
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Thanks, Malcolm, so I see it is just a connector of the 2 parts of the mantra. Is it true that originally, it wasn't meant to be part of the recitation?


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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:09 am 
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Bodhipaksa over at wildmind.org thinks so, and I tend to agree. It's kind of a disputed topic, and people are SOOooooo attached to familiar mantra forms...

On the other hand, if you recite Pepsi slogans sincerely and with correct intent, it will likely work as well or better than the standard forms. It's sort of a "dogs tooth" principle.

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:16 am 
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"Tadyathaa" in some sutra has been translated to Chinese as "即說咒曰", which literally means "the mantra is thus now spoken as..."

Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:14 pm 
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tadyathā is the equivalent a stage direction. I've written about it in some detail on my blog: tadyathā in the Heart Sutra.

The words tad yathā mean 'in this way, like this' - indicating that the mantra which has been introduced before tadyathā is what follows tadyathā. My blog post looks at both the Heart Sutra and Medicine Buddha mantras.

The fact that it inadvertently got included in some mantras is down to people not understanding Sanskrit when passing on mantras. Simple as that. But as someone else points out, people are attached to their mantras. We tend to insist on chanting them as received, even if they contain errors. The standard Tibetan explanations of the Vajrasattva mantras have also mangled the Sanskrit original, but no one really wants to hear this. Many Buddhists explicitly or implicitly believe in the infallibility of lineage. But a basic knowledge of Sanskrit will disabuse most people of this affliction when it comes to mantras.


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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Jayarava wrote:
tadyathā is the equivalent a stage direction. I've written about it in some detail on my blog: tadyathā in the Heart Sutra.

The words tad yathā mean 'in this way, like this' - indicating that the mantra which has been introduced before tadyathā is what follows tadyathā. My blog post looks at both the Heart Sutra and Medicine Buddha mantras.

The fact that it inadvertently got included in some mantras is down to people not understanding Sanskrit when passing on mantras. Simple as that. But as someone else points out, people are attached to their mantras. We tend to insist on chanting them as received, even if they contain errors. The standard Tibetan explanations of the Vajrasattva mantras have also mangled the Sanskrit original, but no one really wants to hear this. Many Buddhists explicitly or implicitly believe in the infallibility of lineage. But a basic knowledge of Sanskrit will disabuse most people of this affliction when it comes to mantras.


Different lamas have different opinions about whether we should try to do mantras "correctly" in Sanskrit. If we are, in essence, mentally correcting our guru when we say a mantra differently than he or she does, is that a subtle attitude that we want to carry in to our practice?

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Is it just me, or does Tadyatha seems to only precede the mantras of yidams whose practices are at least partially based on Sutras, rather than Tantras (i.e. Shakyamuni Buddha, Medicine Buddha, etc.)?

I've never seen a strictly HYT yidam like Chakrasamvara, Guhyasamaja, or Vajrabhairava have their mantra start with "Tadyatha."

Is this simply a weird coincidence, or is there a pattern at work here?

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Just my two cents, but IMO, say the mantra the way you received it from your Teacher.

:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:20 am 
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I may have read into this a bit too much but I would like to offer my opinion.
It sounds like tadyatha, literally translated, means "like this, in this way"; relatively translated, the translation can include "spoken like this, the mantra is spoken like this, say the mantra this way, etc"
I would like to offer my own thoughts as to the importance of including tadyatha in recitation.
Firstly I would say that the literal translation is better to use when contemplating the meaning of the mantra during recitation.

If we take Jayarava's three interpretations, which are interpretations of the translation according to the subject of the mantra, to include correct implications, then the meaning of tadyatha is declarative of the subject at hand - the specific mantra or mind protection.
If we consider that reality is like a dream and all manifestations are mind. All sense objects are of mind, etc. We may find that mind protection is influencing the arising of suchness, which is interdependent with the nature of mind, potentiality.

Now it becomes reflexive: as one is reciting the mantra, it is a bit meta to declare that mind is influenced like this, in this way, nonetheless that is the point of including tadyatha in recitation.
IOW, to say that what you are doing, mind protection, is arising in this way or like this, followed by the specific protection, is implicitly stating the true meaning of reality and the potential of arising to be less or not at all obscured due to its nature. The nature of arising is an illusion, interdependent with the arising of buddha nature, which is a manifestation of the permanence of potentiality. Potentiality is itself not a permanent thing - therefore buddha nature is primordial but not equiprimordial with potentiality.
Since buddha nature includes all aspects of buddhahood as that which is obscured, everything and anything is already those aspects, but is simply appearing according to the net of confusion that makes them appear otherwise. So, tadyatha, in my opinion, means "[it is already] like this..."
for instance, "Homage to the Bhagavan Bhaisajyaraguru Vaiduryaprabharaja, a tathagata, an arhat, a samyaksambuddha... [the universe is already existing in a perfect way, according to the power of the potentiality of the buddha, however, to a confused being like me, it appears not to be so, thus I praise you and pray that] in this way (by reciting the following) [reality may manifest according to the following request]: throughout the entire universe, do away with the pain of illness, do away with the pain of spiritual illness, do away with the pain of illness, all throughout. I offer this prayer to you [making it inseparable from reality]."
That's my opinion and the way I've come to understand tadyatha, but who knows what the Buddha meant :shrug:

Sorry for :soapbox:
Much love to you all


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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:45 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
Thank you both.

So, grammatically, does the tadyatha signify that the praise is made by means of the mantra? i.e., "Praise to so and so - [make the praise] like this: Om. . . "


Tadyatha is made of two words tad yatha, "as follows here":

I'd like to publicly thank Malcolm for his participation here. Without him this place would not have a fraction of its current worth. His contribution and expertise are invaluable. :bow:

However having said that, I still reserve the option of disagreeing with him and even occasionally pissing him off. :namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:32 am 
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I do not understand the meaning of Tadyata. So thanks for the kindly explanations. A small contemplation here.
Primordial goodness is not seen by persuing things. Then all words have great value as these can help us to reveal nature like it is. In that way it is like nature what we have forgotten and not nature what we need to discover.

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:37 pm 
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I must ask about Vajra Song

Why ChNN always sing "sugajA" (write sugajE)?
Why he sing: "sRi na sRi na" (write sir na sir na)

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 Post subject: Re: Tadyatha
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:59 am 
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According to Khenpo Tsultrim Tenzin, the presence of tadyatha in a mantra indicates that it comes from a sutra tradition rather than a tantra.

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