waimengwan wrote:Renunciation, how I understand this is we need renunciation then the actions that we do will result in true merit. Without renunciation all actions we do can be either karma or a combination of karma and merits. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Then as a lay person what kind of renunciation can we achieve without becoming a monastic?
Will wrote: then renunciation or non-attachment will be occurring.
waimengwan wrote:But you are not me so I will do my dharma work.
Malcolm wrote:Will wrote: then renunciation or non-attachment will be occurring.
They are not the same thing.
For example, a renunciate who has given up sexual activity may still be attached to sexual activity. A non-renunciate may be no attachment to sexual activity.
But there are different paths for different people of different dispositions, this is why we talk about the path of renuciation, transformation, and self-liberation. The essence of the last path is freedom from grasping, but not renunciation.
They are the same thing
Malcolm wrote:One who is free of grasping and attachment has no need renunciation.
Malcolm wrote:Will wrote:
They are the same thing
They are not the thing. One who is free of grasping and attachment has no need renunciation.
(3) [Je Rinpoche] Since taking keen interest in the pleasurable fruits of the ocean of compulsive existence, without pure renunciation Is no method for (achieving) the peace (of liberation) -
In fact, by craving what is found in compulsive situations, limited beings are completely bound - First, strive for renunciation.
[HHDL] The phrase pure renunciation is mentioned here. Renunciation must be pure in the sense of being totally disinterested in the glories or so-called good things of samsara. If we lack such pure renunciation and are totally obsessed with worldly concerns, there is no way to attain liberation. If we have desire and attachment, then no matter how much positive karma we might have, we will not be able to cut out the root of uncontrollably recurring rebirth. Therefore, we need to develop renunciation.
JKhedrup wrote:I too have heard renunciation rendered as "disenchantment" which would connect well with the quote that Will posted above.
heart wrote:Disenchantment with Samsara is a very important point in the Dzogchen teachings.
Andrew108 wrote:Think about this really hard. If enlightenment was something that you get through renunciation and merit gathering, would you really want it? It becomes something you produced through your actions. So how would you know that you have removed yourself from samsara through renunciation, when really you are trying to achieve something through the renunciation? How do you know that you haven't just involved yourself in a construction?
Andrew108 wrote:When you think of enlightenment as a state where you need to be, then you also feel the need to do something to get you there. So you accumulate merit and hope and aspiration and at the same time you become disenchanted with the thing called samsara, trying to get out. This is how it is for most people I guess. BUT is this really how it is?
Think about this really hard. If enlightenment was something that you get through renunciation and merit gathering, would you really want it? It becomes something you produced through your actions. So how would you know that you have removed yourself from samsara through renunciation, when really you are trying to achieve something through the renunciation? How do you know that you haven't just involved yourself in a construction?
So at some point you have to give up the idea of renunciation because it becomes obviously a false ideal (samsaric) and along with giving up renunciation you give up the idea of there being a goal. This is the inspiration we take from non-attachment and this is the difference that Malcolm was pointing to.
In Dzogchen non-attachment is important of course, but actually disenchantment isn't (for someone wanting to become open to Dzogchen then yes may be use disenchantment as a tool). Renunciation in this sense, as I have alluded to, is simply not adding / not getting. Where renunciation is thought to get you something then it really isn't renunciation and in fact becomes an obstacle.
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