Sex and the Lama

[Malcolm]

With masturbation or anal sex there's no contact between opposite poles.

You do understand that jñānamudra practice for monks or single yogis (male or female) involves masturbation?

[Lhug-Pa]

I'm sure it's not "masturbation" in the sense that everyone who masturbates does it.

Sounds like one version (there are a number of them) of the Vajroli Mudra.

Is there a text on this available for studying?

One can have from what I understand contact between ones own two opposite Solar and Lunar energies through Pranayama and even combined with physical sensation. But this is not considered near as effective as sexual contact between woman and man. Since Karmamudra or Sexual Yoga practice is a lot more powerful than solo sublimation Pranayamas; by analogy (in relation to part of the theme of this thread), casual sex between opposite sexes would still be much more healthy than casual masturbation.

[Norwegian]

Lhug-pa,

It is getting pretty boring reading your posts on sexuality (homosexuality, masturbation, etc.)

To look back at older threads:

JinpaRangdrol:
H.E. Garchen Rinpoche and Thrangu Rinpoche are two prominent gurus who support homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice, as well.

to which Malcolm replied:

So did Dujdom R.

and this was also linked, to illustrate the fact that many different lamas are very fine with homosexuality: http://khandro.net/dailylife_homosexuality.htm

also:

JinpaRangdrol:
I think it's interesting that a Dzogchenpa is this adamant about condemning homosexuality on an internet forum. I'd be interested to hear ChNNR's opinion on the matter...

to which Malcolm replied:

Lhugpa is a noob (sorry, but its true). I would not call him a Dzogchenpa just yet.

He is working it out. He has a lot of conceptual baggage from non-Buddhists he stills find authoratative.

He will realize eventually that all this obsession with fluids and gender is a complete waste of time.

Then, faced with various quotes from different lamas who have nothing against homosexuality, or gay people having sex, you replied the following:

Even if the said Lamas did say what they're quoted as saying, it could imply various things; and is hardly an actual recommendation for people to have "homosexual pairings in traditional Yab Yum practice"[sic].

For example the fact that Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche is said to have been somewhat surprised by the question posed to him, shows that he was only being nice.

Regarding Dudjom Rinpoche, most likely a similar scenario (i.e. him being nice getting taken by others as a full-on "go ahead", even though that was not what was necessarily implied).

Also, about "obsession with fluids and gender", try telling that to H.H. the Dalai Lama, who is, first and foremost, a Dzogchenpa.

And to this, Malcolm had the following to say:

I would be happy to discuss this with HHDL anytime. I have ample proof in the form of texts and so on that his presentation is not properly understood by others.

Anyway Lhugpa, you are not even remotely an expert on this subject. You have received what, a couple of direct introductions, at best from ChNN? Have you ever received a full on major empowerment such as Hevajra, Kalacakra, Guhyagarbha, etc? If you have not, then I would suggest that you are not qualified to have an opinion on this topic, let alone be discussing it.

You are not speaking from the perspective of a practitioner. You have not engaged in creation stage practice, so how can you pretend to have any insight at all into completion stage practices? At least, at the very least, I spent three years in solitary retreat doing these practices.

You are not speaking from the perspective of a translator, nor a scholar. You are speaking from the perspective of an enthusiastic layperson with very inadequate knowledge of the subject.

And then instead of humbly admitting that you in fact do lack knowledge on the topic, you just replied the following:

Well I think that H.H. the Dalai Lama would "be nice" too, in order to be more 'diplomatic' than I am about these issue.

Nevertheless, I'll bet anything that he would still say that non-heterosexual relations are harmful for Dzogchen practice, and that there's no scriptural support that would suggest otherwise.

Which is just stupid.

You should drop this nonsense of yours. It's not very helpful.

It is also very possible that if someone who has a fragile connection to the Dharma reads this, they are put off by your biggotry, and that my friend, is very serious.

When teachers and Tibetan doctors clearly show how you are wrong, and misinformed (on this topic), it would be very advisable for you to be more humble, and reconsider the attitude you have, and the things you say.

[Lhug-Pa]

When teachers and Tibetan doctors clearly show how you are wrong, and misinformed (on this topic)

They have done no such thing (I'm still waiting for someone to post authentic sources such as exact quotes).

Why would H.H. the Dalai Lama, as a Dzogchenpa, say that homosexuality is sexual misconduct if it were not?

We couldn't say that H.H. the Dalai Lama is conditioned by Sutrayana or lower Tantra or something like that, because he's a Dzogchen Master (he gave Direct Introduction to Dzogchen at Merigar like clear back in the 80's for example).

[Pero]

When teachers and Tibetan doctors clearly show how you are wrong, and misinformed (on this topic)

They have done no such thing (I'm still waiting for someone to post authentic sources such as exact quotes).

Why would H.H. the Dalai Lama, as a Dzogchenpa, say that homosexuality is sexual misconduct if it were not?

We couldn't say that H.H. the Dalai Lama is conditioned by Sutrayana or lower Tantra or something like that, because he's a Dzogchen Master (he gave Direct Introduction to Dzogchen at Merigar like clear back in the 80's for example).

Dude, just because someone is a Dzogchen master or even just a practitioner it doesn't mean everything they say has to do with Dzogchen.

[Pero]

No.
There are a range of possibilities other than celibacy or bonking their students.

And what are those possibilities?

They might actually have to work at a relationship for example...Like Ato Rinpoche or Chime Rinpoche or nowadays Sogyal Rinpoche.
You know, treat the woman or man as a human being rather than a conduit for their little trip.

And this can't be done if one is a teacher's student because...?

[Yudron]

When teachers and Tibetan doctors clearly show how you are wrong, and misinformed (on this topic)

They have done no such thing (I'm still waiting for someone to post authentic sources such as exact quotes).

Why would H.H. the Dalai Lama, as a Dzogchenpa, say that homosexuality is sexual misconduct if it were not?

You can't say that H.H. the Dalai Lama is conditioned by Sutrayana or lower Tantra or something like that, because he's a Dzogchen Master (he gave Direct Introduction to Dzogchen at Merigar like clear back in the 80's for example).

I believe His Holiness has long since qualified those statements, which were made about 15 years ago.

You are grasping at straws here, trying to conflate ancient sutrayana teachings, with anuyoga teachings and Dzogchen. Since, we do not discuss anu and ati practices openly in my tradition, and the texts are not for shared with people who are not serious practitioners, I cannot debate you on these topics.

I can, however, say that Lama Tharchin Rinpoche was one of Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche's closest disciples -- and he is said to be one of two surviving people who trained under him in his center in Kongpo, Tibet. He was close to Dudjom Rinpoche from the age of 8 until Kyabje Rinpoche's passing. Dudjom Rinpoche was extremely open minded about sexuality, and we are all part of this tradition where sexuality between consenting adults is viewed as a good thing. I am a student of Lama Tharchin Rinpoche, among other lamas who have equally supportive positions in relation to gay and lesbian sexuality. I can think of at least five gays and lesbians, and one transgender person, who have completed three year retreat in our facility, out of approximately 40, and there is not the slightest bit of discomfort there.

Look, gays and lesbians, and I would call myself one (except that as a frumpy middle aged woman just coming out of retreat I would be greatly flattered by offers from any quarters!) are very sensitive about rejection from religious institutions. When you circulate this kind of antiquated, academically sloppy, perspective, you can easily drive them away from the Dharma. Is that what you want, to turn people's mind away from the Dharma? In my opinion, that is very serious misconduct.

[heart]

You certainly don't seem frumpy to me Yudron.

/magnus

[Stewart]

Lhugpa,

I have many, 15 plus, friends who have completed 3 year retreats...many have done more than one...they practice everything from hyt to anu, Mahamudra, Dzogchen you name it, under some of the most respected kagyu and nyingma Lamas...and guess what? They are....wait for it...Gay!

I have NEVER heard them be criticized for being so, by any master....ever. In fact they have been very tolerant and warm towards them. Assuring them they have no fear of being open with their sexuality.

It's apparent from many of your posts, you have homophobic tendencies, thats fine, but don't try to justify it by pulling out HHDL every time someone disagrees with you. Maybe you should examine why you really feel that way.

You'd do well to peddle your prejudices elsewhere. Oh yeah and while your at it, keep the Gnostic comparisons to yourself, apart from its obvious lack of substance, this is a Buddhist forum, stick to Tao bums, they love all that BS.

Rant over.

[Lhug-Pa]

*yawn*

Still waiting for some concrete Dharma sources....

[Stewart]

*yawn*

Still waiting for some concrete Dharma sources....

That's strange, 'cause usually your satisfied with some BS source like 'Godfrey Higgins'

Why don't you email ChNN directly and ask him? Then you can move on and deal with your own underlying issues.

[Lhug-Pa]

Actually, for a very specific reason, I don't need to e-mail him about it.

However, better to not say any more about it than that, as of yet.

[Stewart]

Actually, for a very specific reason, I don't need to e-mail him about it.

However I won't say any more about it than that, as of yet.

Cool, then that really backs up your argument!

[Lhug-Pa]

Like I said:

"Still waiting for some concrete Dharma sources...."

And the debate here isn't about Godfrey Higgins, by the way.

[Malcolm]

Why would H.H. the Dalai Lama, as a Dzogchenpa, say that homosexuality is sexual misconduct if it were not?

He never said such a thing.

He merely stated that using certain orifices is sexual misconduct. Masturbation, he stated, was sexual misconduct only for monks.

There is no teaching anywhere, in any vinaya pitika, sutra or tantra, that states that homesexuality i.e. same sex gender orientation, is "sexual misconduct".

You need to learn the distinction between gender orientation and sexual activity.

According to the traditional teachings anal or oral sex (ears, etc., are also included here under the general connotation of wrong orifice) is sexual misconduct whether done with a man or a woman.

Masturbation, for lay people, is not included in sexual misconduct.

By the way, your sig is incredibly racist and factually wrong.

M

[Lhug-Pa]

Well I actually meant to refer to the behavior itself, and not necessarily the 'orientation' alone.

Although, I'm quite sure that H.H. the Dalai Lama never implied that masturbation is not sexual misconduct for non-monks.


Also, from Berzin-Archives:

Since both Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism base their practice of ethical self-discipline on Vasubandhu's texts, their lineages still include homosexuality in their lists of inappropriate sexual behavior.

And:

It's part of what we Buddhists call 'bad sexual conduct.' Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element and the female element and everything that deviates from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view. Between a man and man, a woman and another woman, in the mouth, the anus, or even using a hand.

"Reproduction" here can also refer to the Spiritual Reproduction or Regeneration that results from Karmamudra practice, not only physically making children; otherwise H.H. the Dalai Lama would not teach about Karmamudra.

[Yudron]

You certainly don't seem frumpy to me Yudron.

/magnus

Thank you, dear. You made my day!

[Sally Gross]

Strict celibacy was more for the previous age, when there was much more possibility to become a monk and go meditate in the forest. Most people don't have that opportunity anymore.

I'm not saying that everyone should just jump right in to Sexual Yoga right away. I mean, if one can remain celibate and maintain their chastity through Meditation, Pranayama, Yantra Yoga practice, etc. alone, then that's good.

But even casual sex between opposite sexes is still much more healthy than giving in to the vice of masturbation or other forms of sexual deviance. At least with real actual sex between woman and man, one is sharing that enjoyment with someone, instead of squandering it on ones own.

Also, masturbation is bad for the Nadi's/channels.

And even though it may be possible to remain chaste as a celibate, that is, with a lot of discipline and Pranayama practices for sublimating the sexual energy; it's very difficult for most to achieve for a long period of time in this contemporary world.

sexual deviance ... oy! I find myself wondering what you think of people who are born intersexed, that is to say, not determinately male or female; or what you think about people who are asexual -- not attracted sexually to anyone, rather than choosing to be celibate.

[Lhug-Pa]

Hi Sally

I find myself wondering what you think of people who are born intersexed, that is to say, not determinately male or female; or what you think about people who are asexual -- not attracted sexually to anyone, rather than choosing to be celibate.

There's not really much I would have to say about this in relation to your above questions, unless you have a more specific question....

Interestingly though..., it is said that some Buddhas are androgynous or hermaphroditic because they have achieved the Alchemical Androgyne (i.e. they have heterosexually transmuted all of their Sexual Energy, and therefore their Solar and Lunar poles are completely unified within themselves).

This being the case, it still wouldn't necessarily mean that everyone who was born intersexed, was born that way due to having acheived the Alchemical Androgyne in past lives. So perhaps in some cases intersexuality is karmic rather than Alchemical?

[Nighthawk]

By the way, your sig is incredibly racist and factually wrong.

M

The first quote in his sig is definitely not factually wrong. It may be hard to digest but based on a lot of history it's very factual.

Don't know about the second quote.