YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish? - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:56 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:29 pm

Matheesha / RYB,

Slightly off topic here, but I'm puzzled by some of your posts. On other threads you put a lot of emphasis on the vipassana-nanas, to the extent of questioning whether certain teachers are teaching properly if they do not discuss them in detail. But in thread such as this you seem to rejecting the teachings on which it is based. Though one might say that the insights are based on MN 24 Ratha-vinita Sutta: Relay Chariots , the details, as Geoff explains, are expounded in the Paṭisambhidāmagga (and Abhidhamma) and elaborated in the Commentaries.

I'm probably missing something, but I find these apparent contradictions confusing.

Metta
:anjali:
Mike

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:32 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:03 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:32 am

Kenshou,

Rebirth occurs due to the causes of avijja, craving, kamma and consciousness, according to the suttas. This body the arahanth has come into being due to previous avijja, giving rise to the rest of the paticcasamuppada - except mental suffering. This is why 'full nibbana' occurs at the death of an arahanth as most of the factors giving rise to a rebirth have long ceased and consciousness will itself cease at the death of the body and the faculties, which is keeping it going even in the absence of avijja from this lifetime. We must not forget that the bodhisattva was looking for a 'cure' for old age, ilness and death and nothing less. Merely overcoming defilements doesn't explain that - we must overcome phenomena itself (aka nibbana). The other point is that if we can overcome phenomena only at death, this dhamma would not be akalika-it would unverifiable in the here and now, only known after death. There would be no way to overcome doubt, nothing to 'come and see', not leading beyond this current state of samsara.

Escape (nissarana) from samsara is quite complex and that is why the paticcasamuppada is quite complex.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:17 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:58 am


rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:18 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:35 am


User avatar
IanAnd
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:19 am
Location: the deserts of Arizona

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby IanAnd » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:57 am

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

tinhtan
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:32 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby tinhtan » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:01 am


starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby starter » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:59 pm

Hm, to my understaning there are two types of stillings in nibbana:

1) Stilling of greed/aversion/delusions:
"Whereas formerly he foolishly had greed — as well as desire & infatuation — he has now abandoned them, their root destroyed like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Whereas formerly he foolishly had malice — as well as ill-will & hatred — he has now abandoned them... Whereas formerly he foolishly had ignorance — as well as delusion & confusion — he has now abandoned them, their root destroyed like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for stilling, for this — the stilling of passions, aversions, & delusions — is the highest noble stilling."

— MN 140

2) Stilling of aggregates: occur when the arahants enter the sphere of non-perception and non-feeling, and when they enter final nibbana.

"There's no fire like passion, no loss like anger, no pain like the aggregates, no bliss other than peace. Hunger: the foremost illness. Fabrications: the foremost pain. For one knowing this truth as it has come to be, Unbinding is the foremost bliss.

— Dhp 202-203


How inconstant are compounded things! Their nature: to arise & pass away. They disband as they are arising. Their total stilling is bliss.

— DN 16

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:17 pm

Stilling of aggregates for a moment, occurs at stream entry- Ven Nanananda writes:

So this string of epithets testifies to the efficacy of the realization by the first path. It is not a mere glimpse of Nibbāna from a distance. It is a reaching, an arrival or a plunge into Nibbāna. For purposes of illustration we may bring in a legend connected with the history of Sri Lanka. It is said that when King Gajabāhu invaded India, one of his soldiers, Nīla, who had Herculean strength, parted the seawater with a huge iron bar in order to make way for the king and the army. Now when the supramundane path arises in the mind the power of thought is as mighty as the blow of Nīla with his iron bar. Even with the first blow the sea-water parted, so that one could see the bottom. Similarly the sweeping influxes are parted for a moment when the transcendental path arises in a mind, enabling one to see the very bottom - Nibbāna. In other words, all preparations (saṅkhāras) are stilled for a moment, enabling one to see the cessation of preparations.
We have just given a simile by way of illustration, but incidentally there is a Dhammapada verse which comes closer to it:
Chinda sotaṃ parakkamma,
kāme panuda brāhmaṇa,
saṅkhārānaṃ khayaṃ ñatvā,
akataññū'si brāhmaṇa.[56]
"Strive forth and cut off the stream,
Discard, oh Brahmin, sense-desires,
Having known the destruction of preparations, oh Brahmin,
Become a knower of the un-made."
So this verse clearly indicates what the knowledge of the path does when it arises. Just as one leaps forward and cuts off a stream of water, so it cuts off, even for a moment, the preparations connected with craving. Thereby one realizes the destruction of preparations - saṅkhārānaṃ khayaṃ ñatvā.
Like the sea water parted by the blow of the iron bar, preparations part for a moment to reveal the very bottom which is 'unprepared', the asaṅkhata. Akata, or the un-made, is the same as asaṅkhata, the unprepared. So one has had a momentary vision of the sea bottom, which is free from preparations. Of course, after that experience, influxes flow in again. But one kind of influxes, namely diṭṭhāsavā, influxes of views, are gone for good and will never flow in again.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:29 am


Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Kenshou » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:31 am


rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:41 pm

Hi Goeff, Kenshou,

Thank you for this discussion, it has clarified the dhamma for me and helped my practice, but it has not left me with a complete resolution. I have not gone into depth with Ven K. Nanananda's discourses- so finding time to go through the full nibbana series is a bit of an issue. Since we are hammering around about the same isseus I think it is best for me to let this thread be- as I don't see any further issues to discuss, which have not already been discussed. Those who are reading can make up their own minds (or not). Incidentally maybe the final point of agreement may be that (at least) a 'void' is is discerned at the point of attaining stream entry. One might even say the actual details of that 'void' is academic and that all we have to do is to get there. I see it more as the kind of awareness that we have when after a nights sleep, when we are awake, we are aware that we were 'unconscious' last night; or the 'awareness' of the gap in 'continuous' vision when we blink (ie we become aware of it after we blink). 'The knowledge of deliverance' comes after the deliverance has taken place and not before. In any case I am winding down.

:anjali:

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby starter » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:10 am

Hm, I'd conclude that the ultimate true stillness is empty of all assavas and empty of all conditioned/changing phenomena. Metta to all, Starter

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby starter » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:32 pm

Hm ... I've been wondering at this stage of my practice if I should try to still all mental fabrications during both formal meditation and daily life, or should focus first on abandoning the fabrications of "self", "likes", and "dislikes". My conclusion is that I should now try to abandon assavas and defilements first [by abandoning the fabrications of "self", "likes", and "dislikes"] instead of trying to still all mental fabrications. Just to share my thoughts with our friends, because I'm a bit afraid that the whole discussion of this thread might lead to the practice of stilling all mental fabrications as a trainee, which is probably not right. Metta to all, Starter

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby daverupa » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:40 pm


User avatar
Goedert
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Goedert » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:07 am

It is impossible to stop a stream line by will without arahatamagga, throught observation it is possible see it stopping.

Observation is really important, but as lay followers we have to progress step by step in our spirituality.

First dividing our possessions in three parts: one to apply in bussniess; one to help the family and other one to give in charity.

Then go to the five precept; eight; ten; samanahood.

One who is contemplating the deathless, would not have a doubt like the topic question... So, one who have a doubt like this should be carefull to not be fooled by himself.


Return to “General Theravāda Meditation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine