Sex and the Lama

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Sex and the Lama

Postby Tilopa » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:49 am

Here is a thoughtful and intelligent essay on lamas and sexual abuse:

http://mahayanadharma.wordpress.com/201 ... -the-lama/
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:10 am

Tilopa wrote:Here is a thoughtful and intelligent essay on lamas and sexual abuse:

http://mahayanadharma.wordpress.com/201 ... -the-lama/


Not really. How is it abuse for a grown man to seduce a grown woman? If the lama has the karmamudra transmission and can give it to the lady, it is a great blessing for both. Serious Vajrayana practitioners know this. I think what's happened is that lamas who perhaps are not so qualified are enticing ladies who are also not the best candidates to try karmamudra. When nothing comes out of it (pun), they both feel a big let down. Then, the lady's mind starts thinking all sorts of regrets. To practice karmamudra you need a really uninhibited woman. There's a scene in "Heart of the World," where the narrator gets hooked up by a guru with a wild hill tribe girl. She had no fear and would never feel regrets. The mahasiddhas of the past always got the wild girls from the forest. The analog in today's times would be all the really modern ladies without sexual inhibitions. Trust me, it's not that hard (pun). You just got to get out there and give it a swing (pun).
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Andrew108 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:45 pm

Lamas who are conditioned by both appearances and circumstances do not hold genuine realization. In terms of the karmamudra argument - this is a false argument since both parties have to be of the same realization for the practice to work. It's a practice for spiritual equals.
My view is that if the Lama wants to take desire to the path then great. But it is not actions of desire that are taken to the path it's thoughts and feelings of desire. There is a big difference. So basically there is never a valid reason for a teacher to have sex with a student.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:03 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Lamas who are conditioned by both appearances and circumstances do not hold genuine realization. In terms of the karmamudra argument - this is a false argument since both parties have to be of the same realization for the practice to work. It's a practice for spiritual equals.
My view is that if the Lama wants to take desire to the path then great. But it is not actions of desire that are taken to the path it's thoughts and feelings of desire. There is a big difference. So basically there is never a valid reason for a teacher to have sex with a student.


Two words: Padmasambhava/Mandarava
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Andrew108 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:56 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Two words: Padmasambhava/Mandarava


Two words: Sogyal / Rinpoche
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Knotty Veneer » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:34 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Two words: Padmasambhava/Mandarava


Two words: Sogyal / Rinpoche


:popcorn:
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:06 pm

Milarepa, Tseringma and her four sisters.

Well all of Guru Rinpoche's consorts were his students. Then he introduced one male student to Yeshe Tsogyal and made her his teacher and consort. That's the tradition. The problem the Tibetans have with Westerners is not being familiar with the culture, who to avoid and who to consort with. Sogyal Rinpoche got caught up in the wrong crowd. If he was consciously or subconsciously going after weak minded women with no loyalty, he was asking for trouble and he got it. He probably rejected her marriage proposal. Also he's a public figure so he's a target, especially for Westerners who are always painting targets on people's backs, playing the victim card, and whining forever. In my opinion, such types don't belong in HYT or Dzogchen and are better suited to sutra practice or lower tantra, and they should shut the F up about HYT because it causes obstacles for themselves. I guarantee you, in a long standing relationship of trust, a teacher and a student can definitely do consort practice. I guarantee you it's happening today and it's going just fine.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:30 pm

Until the court case...
Its exploitation pure and simple.
No different to any other dirty old man who takes advantage.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:16 pm

Simon E. wrote:Until the court case...
Its exploitation pure and simple.
No different to any other dirty old man who takes advantage.


People with this attitude will always look at HYT as foreign, and will never call it home.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:02 pm

I did for many years, now it just seems in retrospect like a loony bin. Full of people proclaiming themselves to be Napoleon while unable to sustain relationships.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Andrew108 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:08 pm

If the consort has no realization then it's just ordinary sexual activity. The student must be sufficiently awakened and the teacher must know that. Also the consort must have as much knowledge about the practice as the teacher has. If there is a claim of exploitation then you can be sure that it was ordinary sexual activity. If there is a command to secrecy then you can be sure that it was ordinary sexual activity.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Norwegian » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:16 pm

What's the problem with ordinary sex between two consenting adults?
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Andrew108 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:53 pm

What's wrong with dualism?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Astus » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:18 pm

It is not against law or lay precept to have sex with a student. Lying about the nature of the relationship, however, is deceitful and harmful. If the woman was not cheated by tales of spiritual benefits or promise of love, then there is simply the case of either casual sex or an emotionally balanced relationship.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:28 pm

Andrew108 wrote:If the consort has no realization then it's just ordinary sexual activity. The student must be sufficiently awakened and the teacher must know that. Also the consort must have as much knowledge about the practice as the teacher has. If there is a claim of exploitation then you can be sure that it was ordinary sexual activity. If there is a command to secrecy then you can be sure that it was ordinary sexual activity.


No, the lama needs to have realization. The consort won't have that yet. The lama instructs the consort and uses the practice to ripen the consort. The consort would at most have experience with development stage, and the consort practice is part of the completion stage. The realization doesn't happen until after a long time practicing consort completion stage. If we are talking Dzogchen, then the consort would have direct introduction and some experience with guru yoga. Then, it is possible to practice with methods of pleasure. It doesn't me he or she is realized. Sometimes the experience will be dualistic and sometimes there will be stability in contemplation. Through practice one gains stability with contemplation. The methods are for transforming dualistic vision into nondual vision or in Dzogchen, stabilizing and deepening contemplation. It does not mean you are already in nondual contemplation 24/7. If that is the case, then there is no need for consort practice.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:38 pm

Andrew108 wrote: In terms of the karmamudra argument...both parties have to be of the same realization for the practice to work. It's a practice for spiritual equals.


I'm not so sure this is true. While both practitioners being equal in realization would probably be ideal, it is not a requirement AFAIK. I've never come across any other requirements than that one's consort has received empowerment, reading transmission, and sufficient instructions to know what she's doing; that she keeps the samayas; and that she willfully engages in the practice for the stated purpose. If done correctly by both parties, the realizations of both will blossom.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:47 pm

Norwegian wrote:What's the problem with ordinary sex between two consenting adults?

The nature of the relationship is unequal, its about power and therefore can never be truly consensual any more than it would be between a student and a college professor.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Pero » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:51 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Norwegian wrote:What's the problem with ordinary sex between two consenting adults?

The nature of the relationship is unequal, its about power and therefore can never be truly consensual any more than it would be between a student and a college professor.

So teachers should remain alone for their entire lives?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:01 pm

No.
There are a range of possibilities other than celibacy or bonking their students.
They might actually have to work at a relationship for example...Like Ato Rinpoche or Chime Rinpoche or nowadays Sogyal Rinpoche.
You know, treat the woman or man as a human being rather than a conduit for their little trip.
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Re: Sex and the Lama

Postby Yudron » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:28 am

Simon E. wrote:No.
There are a range of possibilities other than celibacy or bonking their students.
They might actually have to work at a relationship for example...Like Ato Rinpoche or Chime Rinpoche or nowadays Sogyal Rinpoche.
You know, treat the woman or man as a human being rather than a conduit for their little trip.


I'm not addressing the specific issues between lamas and their students, but Tibetan culture in general. It was quite common for married men in pre-communist Tibet to need to travel for work for months at a time. As I understand it, it was a given that they would have extra-marital affairs while they were on the road. Sex is not dirty or bad in TIbetan society, they don't have any Puritans in their history. Practical and earthy.

Fast forward to globetrotting lamas of the present, it's no big deal to them to have sex with women when they're on the road--it might be viewed from a very earthy level, just to share pleasure. No idea of initiating a relationship, or doing anything harmful or emotion-laden. Huge culture gap with us, sometimes. On the other hand, lots of women initiate sex with attractive lamas. Perceived power turns a lot of women on, like rock stars, basketball players, rich men, and doctors.
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