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Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5? - Dhamma Wheel

Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:36 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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cooran
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby cooran » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:03 pm

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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daverupa
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:11 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:40 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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daverupa
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:15 am

I think conviction... discernment are qualities of a stream-entrant, not qualities leading to stream-entry - emergent properties, if you like. They aren't components of practice so much as they are descriptions of a noble trainee at a certain stage of training.

Besides the sutta to which you've referred, those five are otherwise described with some lucidity in the . There, they are qualities that a monk knows about himself, rather than trained qualities per se.

rowyourboat
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:20 am

I agree with devarupa, above, to a great degree. But might add that it is culmination of previous practice. We run into danger if we base our conclusions on just one sutta (including the likes of the satipatthana sutta). The full picture can only be had, if we consider the full gamut of suttas dealing with a particular subject- not easy to do..

Stream entry, part 2 (Study guide)

"The term "stream" in "stream-entry" refers to the point where all eight factors of the noble eightfold path come together.

"Sariputta, 'The stream, the stream': thus it is said. And what, Sariputta, is the stream?"

"This noble eightfold path, lord, is the stream: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

"Very good, Sariputta! Very good! This noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the stream."

— SN 55.5"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Alex123
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:50 pm

Let me rephrase my question and add certain questions to it:

When the Buddha listed 5 qualities (saddha, sīla, suta, cāga, pañña), why did he avoid mentioning right effort, mindfulness (sati), and samādhi?

I understand how right speech, right action, right livelihood can be included in sīla. And I see how right view can be included in pañña. Right intention is perhaps included in sīla and cāga.

But what about other qualities such as right effort (samma vāyāma), right mindfulness (samma-sati) and right concentration (samma-samādhi)? Are they included in 5 qualities (saddha, sīla, suta, cāga, pañña) mentioned in MN120? If so, how and where? Are they not essential, and thus not included? Or will they automatically be covered when one covers the main 5?

With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

meindzai
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby meindzai » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:30 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby Alex123 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:01 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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daverupa
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby daverupa » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:04 am

Of the five precepts, the one to do with speech (4th) involves a training to abstain from lying, while Right Speech is explicated in detail as a training to avoid harsh, divisive, and idle speech as well as false speech. This is a similar case of a failure to map 1:1, so I wonder if this also causes consternation, or does not. I ask because I fail to see a problem where you seem to see one. I'm wondering why you are specifically trying to map those five qualities onto the Noble Eightfold Path (or vice versa).

:broke:

rowyourboat
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:30 pm

I believe these 5 are the Buddha's path to rebirth in a heavenly realm. Maybe he was saying that this poor man who was suffering from leprosy in this lifetime, was going to bd born a deva, in his next lifetime, after becoming a sotapanna. I think panna includes right view, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.

With metta

Matheesha
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Alex123
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:45 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Sylvester
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:26 am

Hi Alex

I've been similarly perplexed by the many lists, and how each set dovetails into the other.

I think Bhikkhu Bodhi attempts to tabulate the interconnections between the sets, in his translation of the SN. Have you tried that? I have to confess that I still remain very much in the dark about their correlations, although one of my teachers suggests that some sets are temporally distinct from the others, and occur at different times of the path. As usual, I was sleeping in class... :tongue:

meindzai
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby meindzai » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:50 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:22 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Alex123
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Re: Incomplete N8P and awakening, or 8 in 5?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:49 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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