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What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Nyana
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:34 pm


Nyana
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:55 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:19 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Nyana
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:48 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:33 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Nyana
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:07 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:07 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:13 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Kenshou
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Kenshou » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:21 pm


Nyana
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:33 pm


Nyana
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:47 pm


Sylvester
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:22 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:02 am


Nyana
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:24 am


Sylvester
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:15 am


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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:45 am


rowyourboat
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:00 am

Hi Geoff,

You say there is no void to be perceived, yet you quote Ven K Nanananda saying just that to support you position, a few posts before my previous reply. I see you have no problem with 20th century 'commentary' because you seem to use him a lot.

Experientially, your position of getting rid of all fetters, defilements, hindrances etc without the need for a 'complete cessation' seems problematic in that your ignorance works at a pre-conscious level, as can be seen from the paticcasamuppada. Avijja, after giving rise to sankhara, only then gives rise to vinnana/consciousness. The model that you propose simply doesn't dig deep enough to remove avijja-anusaya. I am willing to bet after suppressing some ignorance, it would keep arising repeatedly, manifesting as defilements, operating on premises of nicca, sukha, atta. Stiff resistance to a cessation experience of consciousness (while others are more willing to accept such a possibility) suggests to me an attachment to consciousnes and even knowledge (Nana), and indeed we denote ourselves by what we like to be called, if we had the choice:

"If one stays obsessed with consciousness, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified.[2]

Absence of consciousness is not the death of Nana/insight, rather it is the epitome of insight -simply because it has reached a place no ordinary insight/wisdom/learning can reach. This insight merely unravels the delusion of phenomena, down to its very existence, and it stops existing (for a moment). However ultimate existence/non-existence cannot be a standpoint based on that experience either (that is another discussion).

By magga-phala, I mean 'vimutti'-occurring through insight. Where I come from (Sri Lanka) it is common parlance to denote attaining one of the higher paths and fruits (sorry, finding it difficult to find a more accurate term to name that particular event). I am fully in line with the suttas - if you are not willing to consider the quotations I have provided there is nothing more I can do.

My one caveat is the descriptions of the visuddhis and vipassana nana. I didn't believe in these for a long time until it happened to me. I think you would agree that mindfulness of phenomena arising and passing away is a core practice. Well, what happens when you do that in a way the suttas suggest -after full penetration of the dhamma in terms of views -after saddjammasavana and yonisomanasikara and then progressing to dhammanudhammapatipada (satipatthana) the end result is nibbida, viraga and nirodha. It is this process that is expanded and detailed in the final few 'visuddhis'. If practice begins with no/inappropriate understanding of the dhamma, then mindfulness will merely skim off surface defilements, and 'make samsara peaceful'- what Bikkhu Bodhi was warning the world against. If we loose the proper deep dhamma work, then the Buddha-sasana will end right here. It will become nearly the same as any other religion/psychology preaching salvation and heaven and happiness in this lifetime.

The other reason I subscribe to the visuddhi and vipassana nana is that it was unfolding in just the manner described in my students who were watching arising and passing away of all phenomena. I must admit, I saw it best in them. The last retreat I conducted left me with no doubt that this is what happens when you observe the six sense bases, the five aggregates, Nama-rupa, call it what you will.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
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Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:18 pm


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:23 pm


rowyourboat
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Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:56 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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