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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:22 am 
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Huseng wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
Isn't attraction/aversion to samsara what prevents our liberation, and so gets us into this kind of mess?

Isn't desire what perpetuates the twelve links of dependent origination, thus resulting in uncontrolled involuntary rebirths?

Hey, not fair, I asked you first.

While I agree that disgust is the antidote to desire, it seems too extreme to simply replace desire with disgust. A moderate approach would work at reducing the desire for samsara by observing its shortcomings and employing reason to dispel delusions regarding it. Cultivating aversion would be creating yet another obstacle that would need to be overcome.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:19 am 
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Also as of 11:11 AM GMT on 12/21/12 we will have officially entered the Aquarian Age. Remember, go with the flow; live by Aquarian ideals. :namaste:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:27 am 
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Virgo wrote:
Also as of 11:11 AM GMT on 12/21/12 we will have officially entered the Aquarian Age. Remember, go with the flow; live by Aquarian ideals. :namaste:

Kevin

Virgo you may be a fine and balanced fellow/lady...but it would dishonest of me not to say on this matter that I think it is delusional nonsense.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:52 am 
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If as the Buddha said according to the Pali Canon, sentient life is characterised by Dukkha Anatta and Anicca..then that will still be the characteristic of sentient life on 12/22/12 and thereafter.
Just as gravity will still be associated with mass on 12/22/12 and thereafter.
Duality is not resolved by buffing up the apparent separate world.
It happens at the level of individual insight.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:52 pm 
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dharmagoat wrote:
While I agree that disgust is the antidote to desire, it seems too extreme to simply replace desire with disgust. A moderate approach would work at reducing the desire for samsara by observing its shortcomings and employing reason to dispel delusions regarding it. Cultivating aversion would be creating yet another obstacle that would need to be overcome.


It is all a means to an end.

Aversion for samsara counteracts the ignorance of consequences, whereby one feels repelled by the causes for suffering (unwholesome deeds). It doesn't address ignorance of reality, which requires wisdom to really penetrate. In any case wisdom isn't available to those who have not remedied ignorance of consequences.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Huseng wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
While I agree that disgust is the antidote to desire, it seems too extreme to simply replace desire with disgust. A moderate approach would work at reducing the desire for samsara by observing its shortcomings and employing reason to dispel delusions regarding it. Cultivating aversion would be creating yet another obstacle that would need to be overcome.


It is all a means to an end.

Aversion for samsara counteracts the ignorance of consequences, whereby one feels repelled by the causes for suffering (unwholesome deeds).


And is a fine approach when necessary (so one is either a lower school follower or can't apply more comprehensive methods as outlined in higher Mahayana teachings).

Even with aversion to samsara, one would still need to logically meditate on the consequences of improper actions. Usually this can't be done at the time the seed for improper actions ripen in ones mind.

Another approach is to see the purity of all phenomena and rest in that. This dissolves the motivation for improper action, strengthens equanimity, and doesn't involve invoking aversion to samsara but still results in renunciation of improper actions (because you then don't perform them).

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:27 pm 
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kirtu wrote:
Another approach is to see the purity of all phenomena and rest in that. This dissolves the motivation for improper action, strengthens equanimity, and doesn't involve invoking aversion to samsara but still results in renunciation of improper actions (because you then don't perform them).

Kirt


I don't know how well that works for most beginners to be honest.

You might contemplate the emptiness of all phenomena and then feel compelled later to still engage in unwholesome speech, speech and actions. This is also why precepts are held as quite important given the propensity of the unenlightened mind towards unwholesome acts. I speak from personal experience. For all my intellectual understanding of things I'm still naturally inclined towards a lot of unwholesome deeds. My faculty of reason and vows generally prevent me from engaging in them, though my mind of course is still inclined towards the acts.

It really is best to familiarize and digest Śrāvakayāna teachings before proceeding to the Mahāyāna practices. This is what Lama Tsong Khapa suggested. First one works on aversion for the lower realms while acquiring concern for one's future rebirth, creating the causes for it to be agreeable. Then one pursues individual liberation followed by the bodhisattva ideals of the Mahāyāna. Individual liberation involves severing desire.

In the greater multi-life perspective this is important because the less desire one is subject to, the less prone one will be to take rebirth in the desire realm (in particular the lower realms which are always a concern).

Desire is also a result of reification, as is aversion, though remedying desire is perhaps necessary to cultivate the appropriate mental stamina in which one actually realizes emptiness rather than just intellectually understanding it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:35 pm 
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I have seen beginners, who have attended Buddhist classes to learn meditation and relaxation to become more happy, walk away shaking their heads after several miserable sessions meditating on death and the awfulness of samsara.

Some teachers plainly have no idea that we should also be communicating the good news - that there is a means to escape samsaric rebirth.

(Define rebirth however you like - let's avoid another rebirth thread.)

If we're not careful we may teach people that Buddhism is about running away from something bad, but not about running towards something good.

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Last edited by Blue Garuda on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:40 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
I have seen beginners, who have attended Buddhist classes to learn meditation and relaxation to become more happy, walk away shaking their heads after several miserable session meditating on death and the awfulness of samsara.

Some teachers plainly have no idea that we should also be communicating the good news - that there is a means to escape samsaric rebirth.

(Define rebirth however you like - let's avoid another rebirth thread.)

If we're not careful we may teach people that Buddhism is about running away from something bad, but not about running towards something good.


These are good points.

I think the best thing a teacher could do is gradually introduce the ideas of samsara to beginners. Shantideva's work is a good text to use in that respect. He discussed the terrible aspects of samsara, but also the process of finding relief from it and the path towards liberation and benevolently aiding others.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:05 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Huseng wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Honestly, the negativity is the cause of the decline. Best not to feed into it.


Positive thinking won't solve our environmental problems or put oil back into the ground.


Neither will pouting, but having an positive attitude can give you the energy to solve the problems. Our perceptions are interpretive. And those interpretations are are interdependent with the conditions of the world. Science acknowledges this. If you see failure, that is what will happen.


:good:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
If we're not careful we may teach people that Buddhism is about running away from something bad, but not about running towards something good.

I thought it was about not running at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:05 pm 
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dharmagoat wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
If we're not careful we may teach people that Buddhism is about running away from something bad, but not about running towards something good.

I thought it was about not running at all.


Depends on the perspective. In Buddhism it is said that a person should practise as if their hair were on fire. The aversion to samsaric rebirth is a good motivator.

If you know your true nature you don't need to think about aversion or attachment, do you, but it is a Buddhist forum so my answer was from that perspective. :)

Fly, run, walk, sit. JFDI LOL :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Also as of 11:11 AM GMT on 12/21/12 we will have officially entered the Aquarian Age. Remember, go with the flow; live by Aquarian ideals. :namaste:

Kevin

Virgo you may be a fine and balanced fellow/lady...but it would dishonest of me not to say on this matter that I think it is delusional nonsense.

Thank you sir. And I know that you are too. You are certainly free to your opinion. It would probably sound absolutely bonkers to me too had I not been studying astrology for the past 18 years on and off (informally), and come to see how accurate and true it is when the whole picture (complete charts, etc.) are seen in perspective. This is a world different from reading your daily horoscope for Taurus or Gemini in the local paper, etc., but, to each his own. Of course, there are large tantras dealing with astrology, such as the Kalachakra, etc., and Astrology is completely accepted in Tibet and India, etc., it is one of the sacred Buddhist sciences.
Kevin

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:18 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
If as the Buddha said according to the Pali Canon, sentient life is characterised by Dukkha Anatta and Anicca..then that will still be the characteristic of sentient life on 12/22/12 and thereafter.
Just as gravity will still be associated with mass on 12/22/12 and thereafter.
Duality is not resolved by buffing up the apparent separate world.
It happens at the level of individual insight.

Bump.
And the rather pertinent point that on the 12/22/12 sentient life will still be characterised by the Three Signs of Being ?
Or does the Buddha's analysis only hold good from 500 BC to December 21st, 2012 ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
If as the Buddha said according to the Pali Canon, sentient life is characterised by Dukkha Anatta and Anicca..then that will still be the characteristic of sentient life on 12/22/12 and thereafter.
Just as gravity will still be associated with mass on 12/22/12 and thereafter.
Duality is not resolved by buffing up the apparent separate world.
It happens at the level of individual insight.

No one said there will not be dukkha-- there certainly will be.

In particular, there will always be dukkha on earth and there will be birth, old age, sickness and death.

However, during the next two thousand years, humanity will act in less self-centered ways, and also be blessed with an incredible, seemingly infinite amount of inormation that is freely available, technology, and great ease of communications, and a sense of equality and brotherliness. Hence, we are entering a golden age for humanity. Really, it's going to be a great time. It will not, however, be without fault or problems. This is samsara, after all. This is simply a time where are good qualities will shine more and people will do actions based on love and equality rather than so many power moves.

It's important for people to know because this transition might challenge us in areas and this energy will be especially amplified now. If we don't change to more harmonious views, it creates a stuck in the mud resistance for us in a rapidly changing environment which effects our energy very negatively, that negativity causes a problem for ourselves and others.

Kevin

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:59 pm 
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I'm sure that is a very comforting belief system Virgo.
It has nothing at all to do with Buddha Dharma.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
I'm sure that is a very comforting belief system Virgo.
It has nothing at all to do with Buddha Dharma.

It is one of the 5 secondary Buddhist sciences (that is Tibetan astrology, which is part Indian and part Chinese in origin, Western astrology is much like the Indian (and specifically Kalachakra astrology (though in a more mundane form) that was inherited from India). If you choose not to use it, that is fine.

Take care. :anjali:

Kevin

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Last edited by Virgo on Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
In Buddhism it is said that a person should practise as if their hair were on fire.

Darn it, I think my fire has gone out.

Blue Garuda wrote:
The aversion to samsaric rebirth is a good motivator.

I concede. If you are going to have an aversion, make it this one.

Blue Garuda wrote:
If you know your true nature you don't need to think about aversion or attachment, do you, but it is a Buddhist forum so my answer was from that perspective.

I was questioning whether it is healthy to cultivate aversion, considering the emphasis Buddhism places on its being unhealthy. The consensus seems to be that for some cultivating aversion to samsara is more helpful than it is unhealthy, and I will go along with that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:27 pm 
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dharmagoat wrote:
I was questioning whether it is healthy to cultivate aversion, considering the emphasis Buddhism places on its being unhealthy. The consensus seems to be that for some cultivating aversion to samsara is more helpful than it is unhealthy, and I will go along with that.


I think it can easily be overdone, as I posted earlier. I've seen beginners leave after a few sessions when they were unfortunate enough to join the class when death and samsaric rebirth were topics.

One left for another reason, quote: 'That silly bugger is telling me I'm going to be reborn as a dog!'

Sometimes, when we understand the context ourselves, we forget how it appears to newcomers.

Negative teaching is a bit like: 'Do you want the bad news first.....................or the bad news first! '

We can't all be inspiring teachers, I guess. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
I was questioning whether it is healthy to cultivate aversion, considering the emphasis Buddhism places on its being unhealthy. The consensus seems to be that for some cultivating aversion to samsara is more helpful than it is unhealthy, and I will go along with that.


I think it can easily be overdone, as I posted earlier. I've seen beginners leave after a few sessions when they were unfortunate enough to join the class when death and samsaric rebirth were topics.

One left for another reason, quote: 'That silly bugger is telling me I'm going to be reborn as a dog!'

Sometimes, when we understand the context ourselves, we forget how it appears to newcomers.

Negative teaching is a bit like: 'Do you want the bad news first.....................or the bad news first! '

We can't all be inspiring teachers, I guess. :)


It is better to start with "your primordial state is perfect...." and then go from there.

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