Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:10 pm

kirtu wrote:unless Malcolm means the tigresses first heat ever?


Yes, her first heat ever.
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby kirtu » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:02 pm

Blue Garuda wrote::offtopic: Talking of burning away, I'm surprised Vajradaka doesn't pop up in conversation much. Maybe someone should try to raise his profile a bit. :shrug:


Offtopic: not so much. Vajradaka: it's a lineage thing. Vajradaka doesn't appear outside of Gelug more or less, right? VK and Dorje Drollo are cross lineage and VK is very much practiced.


Blue Garuda wrote:Bearing in mind the nature of Drollo, how can he help you destroy negative karma vipaka in ways other deity practices cannot? (Treat as a 'Tantra Talk' question and respond via PM if public discussion would be inappropriate. :) )


This much is not tantra talk: I don't know for sure. It just that there are numerous stories about people practicing Dorje Drollo and then undergoing extreme situations. The stories are that Droje Drollo causes karma to ripen very quickly.

It's an oversimplification but VK and Guru Drakpur clear away non-conducive circumstances and circumstances that hinder compassion. If one has a karmic connection with them then they will also help transform your mind and help transform issues. I have met more than one person with anger issues who have had that transformed or reduced in some way and they attribute that to VK practice. HHPR did not say much about Guru Drakpur when he gave the empowerment but did say that it was effective for disease, esp. cancer.

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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby dakini_boi » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:unless Malcolm means the tigresses first heat ever?


Yes, her first heat ever.



This is interesting. What is the term in Tibetan, and why is it usually understood as "pregnant?"
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby heart » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:09 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:unless Malcolm means the tigresses first heat ever?


Yes, her first heat ever.



This is interesting. What is the term in Tibetan, and why is it usually understood as "pregnant?"


I am curious about this also.

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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:43 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:unless Malcolm means the tigresses first heat ever?


Yes, her first heat ever.



This is interesting. What is the term in Tibetan, and why is it usually understood as "pregnant?"


The term is sbrum which has two meanings 1) A pregnant woman 2) A lustful woman.

The term refers to the second sense. Since tigeresses are only lustful when they are in heat, and since in many sadhanas the tigress is termed gzhon nu i.e. young, hence the oral communication indicates that the tigress in question is experiencing her first heat and is in a fit of crazed lust. If you have ever seen a cat go through her first heat, then you will understand better.

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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby mutsuk » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:One, the tigress is a Bon deity, named Ati muwer -- oral communucation, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu


I don't know if the tigress is a Bon deity in the case you refer to, most certainly. However, it's pretty unlikely that it is named Ati Muwer. Ati Muwer is a peaceful manifestation of white complexion, one head, two arms, two legs. He is pretty much like Tapihritsa, like a white Kuntuzangpo. He is in fact the Bon-sku (dharmakaya) form of Zhangzhung Meri (and consequently he appears in much the same form as the dharmakaya of dBal-che Ge-khod in several texts). Ati muwer is a very well-known figure in Bön: he is said to have revealed the teachings of dBal-chen Ge-khod for the first time and also to have originated the cycles of Me-ri Gyad-phur. As far as I know (and asking JL because I was a bit perplexed by the identification with the tigress), he is not associated with tiger(s)/tigress(es) in Bon texts.

I'll be trying to upload a tsakli picture of Ati Muwer from a set of intiiation cards of a ZZ Meri cycle. I don't know how to do this though...
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:56 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Malcolm wrote:One, the tigress is a Bon deity, named Ati muwer -- oral communucation, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu


However, it's pretty unlikely that it is named Ati Muwer.


Its name is Ati Muwer. I have heard Norbu Rinpoche discuss this on more than one occasion.

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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby zangskar » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:15 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Malcolm wrote:One, the tigress is a Bon deity, named Ati muwer -- oral communucation, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu


I don't know if the tigress is a Bon deity in the case you refer to, most certainly. However, it's pretty unlikely that it is named Ati Muwer. Ati Muwer is a peaceful manifestation of white complexion, one head, two arms, two legs. He is pretty much like Tapihritsa, like a white Kuntuzangpo. He is in fact the Bon-sku (dharmakaya) form of Zhangzhung Meri (and consequently he appears in much the same form as the dharmakaya of dBal-che Ge-khod in several texts). Ati muwer is a very well-known figure in Bön: he is said to have revealed the teachings of dBal-chen Ge-khod for the first time and also to have originated the cycles of Me-ri Gyad-phur. As far as I know (and asking JL because I was a bit perplexed by the identification with the tigress), he is not associated with tiger(s)/tigress(es) in Bon texts.

I'll be trying to upload a tsakli picture of Ati Muwer from a set of intiiation cards of a ZZ Meri cycle. I don't know how to do this though...

He is part of a thangka photos on page 99 and 101 of Per Kværnes Bon Religion of Tibet, also some description of him on page 84, these pages seem to be available on Google books.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZSuuyh ... CFEQ6AEwAA

Maybe there's more than one version of Ati Muwer?
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(BTW, note I am just surfing on the web, I don't know anything except what Google said. :oops: )
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby mutsuk » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:41 pm

I don't think so, he is always depicted as a white figure, peaceful, etc. I unfortunately haven't succeeded in uploading the tsaklis I wanted to include here but the 7 of them all show him in the same way. There is no tiger anywhere around him and he is always depicted in a human form. There must have been a mistake with the identification with a tigress.

Furthermore, if he is a well-known figure in Bön, he does not appear much outside the dBal-chen Ge-khod and Zhang-zhung Meri cycles. I of course have not read all Bön tantric cycles but I'm browsing through JL's gigantic files on Bön and Ati Muwer ("King of the Supreme Sky" in Zz language) shows reference entries only for Ge-khod and Me-ri. Furthermore, in these cycles he is well-known as one of the three Protectors (mGon-po rnam-gsum): Bon-sku Atimuwer, rDzogs-sku Ku-byi mang-ke, and sPrul-sku Zhang-zhung Me-ri. You thus have a peaceful Dharmakaya form (always in white), a peaceful sambhogakaya form of Ku-byi mang-khe (resembling Manjushri, various forms and colors), and a wrathful nirmanakaya. No tigers around.
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:17 pm

mutsuk wrote:I don't think so...


Take it up with ChNN. The only time I have ever heard the name "Ati Muwer" is in connection with Drollo, as his mount. Sorry, that is just the way it is.

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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby mutsuk » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:30 am

Maybe, but then you should understand that it's not the way it is for Bonpos. Ati Muwer is a peaceful dharmakaya form. THere is no other Ati Muwer in Bon...and no tiger around him.
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:29 pm

mutsuk wrote:Maybe, but then you should understand that it's not the way it is for Bonpos. Ati Muwer is a peaceful dharmakaya form. THere is no other Ati Muwer in Bon...and no tiger around him.



Right, I do understand that. Prior to this conversation, I had no idea. I am not an expert in Bon.

But it is a fact that Drollo's mount Ati Muwer was identified for me by ChNN as Ati Muwer.
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:24 pm

"Ati Muwer (Mu=sky..wer=king) is a deity of wisdom (yeshe lha). He holds a bow and arrow of meteoric iron." (Kvaerne:1996..pg84)
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby pemachophel » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:01 pm

The story I read in Bhutan when getting ready to visit Parao Taktshang was that Guru Rinpoche and Yeshe Tshogyal were in eastern Tibet practicing in retreat there. Yeshe Tshogyal saw that there were demons in western Bhutan that needed subduing. She urged Guru Rinpoche to go and do something about this. He did not. Yeshe Tshogyal got more and more impatient and insistent. She eventually transformed into a tigress to fly to western Bhutan to do something Herself. At that point, Guru Rinpoche mounted the tigress and They flew together to Paro Taktshang, etc., etc., etc. However, I also think I have heard that the tigress was a Bon deity (possibly from Lama Dawa Chodak).

Seems like there are different versions of the explanation of Dorje Drolo's tigress mount. :namaste:
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:21 pm

pemachophel wrote:The story I read in Bhutan when getting ready to visit Parao Taktshang was that Guru Rinpoche and Yeshe Tshogyal were in eastern Tibet practicing in retreat there. Yeshe Tshogyal saw that there were demons in western Bhutan that needed subduing. She urged Guru Rinpoche to go and do something about this. He did not. Yeshe Tshogyal got more and more impatient and insistent. She eventually transformed into a tigress to fly to western Bhutan to do something Herself. At that point, Guru Rinpoche mounted the tigress and They flew together to Paro Taktshang, etc., etc., etc. However, I also think I have heard that the tigress was a Bon deity (possibly from Lama Dawa Chodak).

Seems like there are different versions of the explanation of Dorje Drolo's tigress mount. :namaste:



I was not insisting it was the only account, merely the account I heard from one source.
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby username » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:57 pm

The last time the tigress was seen at Paro Taktsang (Tigress Nest) temple in Bhutan in a terma vision (we know of) was by the previous Trungpa Rinpoche. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche via his student the then Queen mother of Bhutan, and Paro's abbot, arranged so Trungpa could visit as he knew Trungpa would be getting a terma. The Padmasambhava form of Dorje Drollo appeared with the face of Karmapa 16th who was one of his gurus and bestowed the terma, later presented to Dilgo Khyentse. The tigress was there too.

A tiger was seen prior to temple construction in that impossible/impassable location often. There are three accounts of the tigress which can all be true. The locals believe it is Yeshe Tsogyal as the main vehicle of the guru. Others say it is a wisdom dakini. Thirdly I have heard a few lamas, including ChNNR, say it was a local protectress that was subdued and brought under oath by the master and also became a high follower of the path, not just subdued under oath. She might then have become an enlightened dakini or female being inseparable from Yesh Tsogyal too manifesting as a strong angry young lusty tigress and vehicle for the guru. So one or more of the accounts could all be true. As the Bhutan Beyuls like Paro were not originally Buddhist, the local protectress in her previous form might be called Bon in Tibet. ChNNR specifically said people organizing and inviting him for teaching around the world are specially advised to do Dorje Drollo. I guess at least specially before, during & After his visits to overcome provocations. He was sad about this, for a certain reason I will not discuss, and said he thought Guru Dragpur might be enough in such cases but Drollo is needed too to deal with certain type of provocations.

http://www.bhutanmajestictravel.com/abo ... igers-nest
http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_110.html
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby zangskar » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:06 pm

username wrote:Others say it is a wisdom dakini.

The version by Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche from the link posted by Muni (http://www.turtlehill.org/khen/eman.html)
"The tigress is actually Tashi Kyedin, a student of Guru Padmasambhava and Yeshe Ts'ogyal, and one of the five wisdom dakinis. The five wisdom dakinis are no other than incarnations of the five female Buddhas representing the Vajra, Ratna, Padma, Karma and Buddha families. And these are no other than the pure form of the five elements. Along with Mandarava, Yeshe Ts'ogyal, Kalasiddhi and Shakyadevi, Tashi Kyedin helped Guru Rinpoche carry out his wisdom activities. When Guru Padmasambhava emanated as Dorje Drolo, she was immediately transformed into a tigress. "
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby username » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:20 pm

Yeshe Tsogyal, Mandarava, Shakyadevi, Kalasiddhi & Tashi Khyedin are from the same basis and really the same though different accounts have different sources Vajravarahi/Saraswati/Tara and ultimately Samantabhadri. They are the 5 emanations (body, speech, mind, quality & Activity) of that being to help Padmasambhava as he requested help in Sambhogakaya before emanating which was granted him and they merged there prior to setting out. with the Bhutanese princess student of Yeshe Tsogyal, Tashi Khyedin, who became inseparable from the guru as his retreat consort at Paro, being the activity emanation. They are all the same basis emanation.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:24 pm

username wrote:ChNNR specifically said people organizing and inviting him for teaching around the world are specially advised to do Dorje Drollo.


Not that this is a bad idea, but he only gave this transmission once, this year, prior to losar -- so when did he say this -- I do not recall him saying this, but then my memory is not perfect, nor my attention.
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Re: Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

Postby username » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
username wrote:ChNNR specifically said people organizing and inviting him for teaching around the world are specially advised to do Dorje Drollo.


Not that this is a bad idea, but he only gave this transmission once, this year, prior to losar -- so when did he say this -- I do not recall him saying this, but then my memory is not perfect, nor my attention.


Yes that is when he said it and specified in such cases but others can benefit too as he said. Dzogchen is immensely powerful in all aspects.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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