An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Simon E.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Simon E. » Fri May 18, 2012 2:21 pm

" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Grigoris
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Grigoris » Fri May 18, 2012 2:47 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Willy
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Willy » Sun May 20, 2012 1:35 am


Yangtso
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Yangtso » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:53 pm

The Buddha Sakyamuni taught the ten virtues as a foundation austerity, did he not?

Vidyadharas (8th bhumi Bodhisattva) were not taught to discard them nor
are those of lesser or greater realization, unless the teaching is not dharma?

Show the Sutra reference if this is otherwise.
Else it is not Dharma just ones opinion.

Because teachers like HH Sakya Trizin teach that all noble beings hold the ten
virtues. Even Vidyadharas gain karma from not adhering to the ten virtues. Also
they instill bad habits in others. Or conversely they are taking on bad habits
of others to liberate them? This would require a fully enlightened Buddha
emanating as a Vidyadhara.

I would argue that to gain entourages by actually
physically sleeping with multitudes of women either in orgies or serial monogamy or
pimping is to misread the tantras. Apparently there are some naughty nobles,
among the emanations? And some wannabes. Who will work to purify that karma at some future
point as the fruit arises; but the point of no turning back is to denounce you root guru
and the sutras are clear as to what happened to Devadatta

So the harm done is the negative karma. And the virtue of abstaining from immoral
sex is basically, only with your wife, not the gurus consort, not in a temple, not on her period
and not in other orifices. Clearly you open your self up to other energies or entities,
causing difficulties along the path.

This is the teaching of Dharma from the Buddha not a popular advertisement
or a popular movement.

The life story of Yasodhara tells of how she was Buddha's wife for eons,
and there were occasions where he broke this vow. In one
the second wife killed him, and in others he became imprisoned, bound
or held and she had to ransom herself to mitigate and free him from his
karmic bonds. She saved him for death and attacks by others countless times.

One of the fruits of the karma of sexual misconduct would be not to have
a wife as noble as Yasodhara. As she asked the Buddha for permission
to enter nirvana he recognized her as being the first one
beside him from the beginning of his sangha.

If the Nobel Bodhisattva himself traversing the path is not immune from the
laws of cause and effect how can we claim that we, the masses
and the Dharma teachers are exempt?

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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby emaho » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:47 pm

There is a woman who is currently publicly accusing Ole Nydahl and Thaye Dorje of some kind of abuse. I cannot really follow her argumentation or remotely claim to understand what exactly it is she is accusing them with. It is not an accusation of sexual abuse on a physical level, however she claims that Nydahl would have "violently opened her kundalini", "pushed her into the bardo state", and both Nydahl and Thaye Dorje would have "offered her as their secret consort".

Her story appears quite weird to me, she is mixing up Hindu-Yoga terminology and some ideology from the Trimondis and from some other sources, and quite frankly it appears to me that she doesn't even know what "bardo" means. She must have had some kind of ASC (altered states of consciousness) when she was a student of Ole Nydahl's which she interprets as a result of Nydahl performing some secret magic rituals on her. Now she is sueing him for abuse and he is apparently sueing her for libel.

I personally do not have the impression that her accusations make sense.

Maybe this letter by Shamar Rinpoche is meant as a defense against these charges. :shrug:
"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

emaho
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby emaho » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:08 pm

"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

emaho
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby emaho » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:18 pm

Not all of Ole's students are completely free of any doubts.

Anyway, I'm not happy with this document either. One cannot just define everything which is questionable about Ole and his centers away by performing a declarative speech act and pronouncing everything Ole teaches as true. Maybe this is how things worked in Tibet. But in the West things don't work this way.
"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

AlexanderS
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby AlexanderS » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:41 pm

I don't see why it's wrong to critize a religion if the critiscm is legitimate. I suppose the Buddha Shakyamuni should not have belittled hindu teachings. What is the politically correct thing to say is not always the correct thing to say.

Ole Nydahls anti-islamic remarks annoy me mostly because when I attend teachings on buddhism I am mostly interested in learning about buddhism and not about Islam. I have a very low opinion of Islam in the modern world so I do not disagree with him as such.

Ole Nydahls sexual relations, also annoy me, but if it brings joy to him and his partners then the problem is with me and not with him. And his sex life is mainly none of my buisness.

Despite the fact that his style is not in complete harmony with my own, does not mean I have not experienced benefit from his teachings and his activity, and even though certain things annoy me it does not suddenly mean I consider him to be an inauthentic teacher.

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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:20 pm

“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

emaho
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby emaho » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:45 pm

"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

Knotty Veneer
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:52 pm

Does Shamarpa really think that this is the type of behavior he can defend in a Dharma teacher:

Image

Anyone reading this - would your teacher do this? In a shrineroom?
Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:53 pm

Or this:
Image
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

AlexanderS
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby AlexanderS » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:07 am


Knotty Veneer
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:29 am

Response to AlexanderS:

If you cannot see that Ole's behavior in regard to the women in those photos is inappropriate for a Dharma teacher, you need to perhaps widen your experience by visiting some other Tibetan Buddhist centres. I know of no other group where an elderly (and any other) lama would touch young girls like that. If as you say in the first photo, he is giving a blessing - that usually done by placing relics on the top of the head. I can't see exactly what he's doing in the second photo either but again I can't see why any teacher would be fiddling with a student's bra strap.

You are right not to approve of Ole's sexual behavior. It is not a problem inside DWB because Ole tells people that it is not a problem and any one who contradicts him usualy doesn't get to stick around. Behavior like you see in those photos does not happen in Buddhist groups where the lama is concerned for the welfare of his students instead of his own sexual kicks.

As regards your responses to the quotes on Islam and birth rates. You appear to be as misguided as Ole himself.

I do not think Islam is all the great either hence I am a not a Muslim but as ReasonandRhyme pointed out it is a very diverse phenomenon and you cannot tar everybody with the same brush. Many - probably most - Muslims are ordinary decent people. It is wrong to blame them all for the sins of the fanatics. Also such statements are an unskillful way to engage the fanatics who love to feel they are under attack - it justifies their violence in their eyes.

As regards curbing the birthrate of the poor - that is simple old fashioned ignorant eugenics. The wealthy white Europeans and Americans use many more of the world's resources than the poor in Africa and Asia. Yes we need to look at the population problem but we also need to look at the distribution of wealth. Statements like Ole's reveal a fear that the theft of the biggest share of the world's resources by the First World will not be able to continue. It should not. Statements like that have Far Right fanatic written all over them.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

AlexanderS
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby AlexanderS » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:00 am


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Kelwin
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Kelwin » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:13 am

'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

emaho
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby emaho » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:58 pm

"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

Blue Garuda
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:47 pm

Quite a few westerners have been authorised to teach by Tibetan Lamas. Some even here on DW.

The first question to ask is whether the Tibetan Lama should be teaching, let alone 'authorising' others to do so.

Some westerners are also 'authorised' to give empowerments, even at HYT level, some again seemingly without having to do much except be a senior student.

It is a complex business and we may look at these things through western eyes and be misled. Equally, Tibetans may look at the behaviour of a westerner and misinterpret things and trust the wrong people.

One thing seems clear - there will always be mistakes. The sign of a healthy organisation is that those mistakes are recognised and remedied. I'm sure there are many problems with westerners, but sexual misbehaviour by ordained people seems to get a lot of publicity - Tibetan schools, Zen, NKT etc etc

Sexual misbehaviour is a nasty problem, but it is pretty transient - people die or their bits stop working or drop off.

If the lineage teachings themselves are wrecked by letting westerners teach and give empowerments who are badly trained and educated, the loss may be a lot more serious and long-lasting.

Just trying to contextualise what seems to have become a focus on a narrow element of behaviour, in the broader context of what is harmful to the Sangha and the survival of the Dharma.
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dakinilover
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby dakinilover » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:08 pm

Hello everyone :smile:

As for not approving of students visiting other teachers in DW, well, I don’t need anyone’s approval, because I am a free man and I can visit whoever I want. There is a difference between visiting and following. If you, at the beginning of your journey, follow different paths and different teachers, you can get really confused. If you are kagyupa, sakyapa, gelugpa at the same time, you may as well start your own sect :smile: I think that one should first master one path and then dabble in other traditions, without the risk of confusion. The Rime movement is a great initiative, but should be applied by more advanced practitioners. I can see nothing wrong in visiting other teachers and learning from them, as long as you stick to the practice of one school. So listen what they have to say, but do it your way. Diamond way :smile:

Lama Ole and Hannah wanted to do 3 year retreat, but 16th Karmapa told them that going to the west and spreading dharma would be more beneficial for sentient beings, and assured them that fulfilling his wish would be as good for their personal development and realization as going to retreat. So Lama Ole didn’t get the title in the traditional way because he was busy following instructions given to him by his teacher.
I’ve recently learned an interesting thing about male and female practitioners. Women are not so overtly concerned with titles as men are, and I think it’s a healthy attitude to have :smile:
Would you reject a teacher, whose teachings are profound to you, because he has no title?
Difficult people are my teachers, my enemies are my teachers, and none of them possess any kind of Buddhist title. So maybe it’s better to concentrate on peoples good qualities and on the effect their teaching has on our development?
And besides, Karmapa choose Ole for this job, so if Ole is good enough for Karmapa, his good enough for me. Or maybe Karmapa made a mistake? Well, it’s possible, we all know that only the Pope is infallible :smile:

It’s been a while since I wrote anything in English and feel a little tired so I will present my views concerning Karmapa controversy and “islamophobia” some other time.
Have a nice Day of the Dead :smile:

:namaste:

Dhondrub
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Dhondrub » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:31 pm



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