YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
pegembara
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby pegembara » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:57 pm

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby kirk5a » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:41 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:12 am

Hi Kirk,

Yes, consciousness is awareness, is impermanent.


"What do you think, monks — Is consciousness constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Furthemore:

"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'

Whats important to understand is that consciousness is also dependantly originated- to put it in simply terms- it arises because something else gives rise to it. When that something else disappears, it also disappears. If you look at how consciousness/awareness/mindfulness (call it what you will) arises, you see that it occurs because nama (mental) rupa (material) phenomena arises.

..from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness."..
..from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form."..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Now we know all 'name and form' (mental and material phenomena ie the five aggregates) are impermanent. Hence awareness is also impermanenet. However we can only sense this (when we are awake) in deep vipassana. Otherwise, like those old film reels wich have a series of still pictures, when spun really fast, we get a sense of continuity. Vipassana slows down this process so that we can sense the individual picture/film segment (does it have a technical term?? :)). So reality is really a series of sense impressions very rapidly arising and passing away one after the next -which forms an illusion of continuity.

The most difficult one to see is the impermanent nature of consciousness itself. Often the self and even a sense of sukha -that it is pure etc can hide in it.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:00 pm

Hi Kirk,

Here's another gem by Ven Katukurunde Nananda:

“It’s a pity that many Bud dhists still can not accept that the goal of this prac tice is the ces sa tion of viññāṇa. It is a suf fer ing; the sim ile for viññāṇâhāra is being beaten by a spear 300 times a day. The dark­ness of avi jjā cre ates the back ground for it. As I pointed out with the sim i les of the cin ema and the magic show, these things can only hap pen as long as there is dark ness. All this is just an illu sion, a drama. In fact, the old est mean ing of saṅkhāra is found in that con text of a stage show.
“The con nec tion between viññāṇa and nāma-rūpa can be illus trated with a child ish sim ile: it is like a dog chas ing its own tail. The mod ern Rohi tas sas who try to over come a world as seen through viññāna are no dif fer ent. They chase after what the Bud dha dis­missed as an illu sion. There is noth ing to go chas ing after here; all that needs to be done is to stay where one is, and to real ize that it is merely a shadow. When the dark ness of avi jjā is dis pelled, saṅkhāra–s are stilled. The game is over.
“Viññāṇa and nāma-rūpa revolve around each other at an inde scrib able speed. That’s why it was told to Ven. Sāti that it is wrong to say “viññāṇaṃ sand hā­vati saṃsarati anaññaṃ” (it is this same viññāṇa that runs and wan ders, not another). If only the Ābhid­ham mikas real ized that pari vatta in lahu pari vattaṃ cittaṃ means ‘revolv ing’: viññāṇa pac cayā nāmarūpaṃ, nāmarūpa pac cayā viññāṇaṃ.
“The Gāthās in the Sagāthaka Vagga, although often not given enough atten tion, are very deep. I stopped the Nib bāna series at ser mon num ber 33, but what I had planned for 34, although never deliv ered, was based on that beau ti ful verse from the Nimokkha Sutta:
Nandīb hava parikkhayā saññāviññāṇasaṅkhayā,
Vedanānaṃ nirodhā upasamā evaṃ khvāhaṃ āvuso jānāmi
Sat tānaṃ nimokkhaṃ pamokkhaṃ vivekan’ti. [SN 1.2]
When delight and exis tence are exhausted
When per cep tion and con scious ness are both destroyed
When feel ings cease and are appeased – thus, O friend,
Do I know, for them that live
Deliv er ance, free dom, detachment.
“”
– Trans la tion by Bhante Ñāṇananda: Saṃyutta Nikāya – An Anthology

“In all other reli gions, viññāṇa was taken as a unit, and worse, as the soul. It is taught that even if every­thing else is imper ma nent, this isn’t. And it is taught as that which reaches Brahmā. But the Bud dha pointed out that it is a mere illu sion. It can’t exist on its own.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:45 pm

Thank you for the replies Matheesha. If the scope of "consciousness" (viññāṇa) is as wide as it appears to be there, then I have trouble reconciling that with Ajahn Maha Boowa's comments on the citta, as well as the "consciousness without feature" of DN 11, and the notion of "Where consciousness does not take a hold nor grow" of SN 12.64, the instruction of "my consciousness will not be dependent on consciousness" of MN143. If viññāṇa refers to vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection, then it fits. So - :shrug:

I personally am not coming from the standpoint of "not accepting that the goal of this practice is the cessation of viññāṇa" - I'm just trying to understand the actuality of the Buddha's Dhamma, however that actually is. In studying it, I come across the teaching that "consciousness is inconstant" but then I see the "consciousness with feature" and then I see Ajahn Maha Boowa saying things like

"Pure awareness, devoid of all contaminants, is supreme awareness: a truly amazing quality of knowing that bestows perfect happiness, as befits the Arahant’s state of absolute purity. This Supreme Happiness always remains constant. It never changes or varies like conditioned phenomena of the world, which are always burdened with anicca, dukkha, and anattã."

What's a guy to do? Take it as an apparent inconsistency, or an actual one? Just put the whole subject on the "dunno" shelf? :smile: Practice, practice, I know. Keeping on with that. But it is a puzzle, or sure seems like one.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby starter » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:11 pm

To my current understanding, "consciousness" (viññāṇa) has two kinds:

1) one of the five aggregates, the consciousness generated by the defiled mind in response to the six sense contacts in the conditioned worlds; it's this consciousness that needs to be stilled.
2) the consciousness generated by the luminous pure mind or "the deathless", which is the "consciousness without feature" of DN 11, and "Where consciousness does not take a hold nor grow" of SN 12.64. This is the consciousness of the arahants. But the consciousness is not the pure mind itself. The pure mind (the deathless) seems to be in another dimension, the unconditioned world. When the arahants enter nibbana, then probably even this consciousness ceases.

In "my consciousness will not be dependent on consciousness" of MN143, the 1st consciousness refers to the consciousness of the arahants, and the 2nd consciousness refers to the aggregate.

Hope this helps. Metta,

Starter

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:20 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:11 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:47 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:22 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:38 am

The former, which I thought was Matheesha's discussion.

As for the latter, I do not know what to make of Ven Nanananda's exposition cited. If the salayatana are completely out, what is mediating the "in-sight"? Can there be contact-less nana?

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:14 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:18 pm

Hi Geoff

I'm afraid your reply to my first query totally escapes my simple mind. :anjali:

I read s.23 of MN 49 as being simply the abandonment of all types of ditthi in relation to the ALL. If so, then it doesn't appear to be anything more mysterious than the abandonment of the sakkaya mentioned in MN 44.

As for your reply to my 2nd query, I agree with Ud 2.4, but it seems to me to be capable of a rather simple reading of giving up of the Aggregates, which is possibly meant by sabbūpadhipaṭinissagga. Insofar as the mental aspects (vinnana, vedana, sanna and cetana) depend on phassa to arise, their having been relinquished must suggest also the disappearance of phassa. Although I have to admit that the paccaya sequence suggested by Ud 2.4 seems somewhat at variance to the standard one in MN 43.

I'm still left wondering about the contactless nana.

I'll put aside discussion of viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ and leave that to more qualified souls.

pulga
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby pulga » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:32 pm

Last edited by pulga on Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:23 pm

I'm increasingly inclined to turn to Luangta Maha Boowa's words for clarification on all this.

from Samana – Luangta Maha Boowa Memorial Book p. 91
http://www.forestdhammabooks.com/index.php?page=Books

"At the beginning of our practice the heart
had no worth, since it was filled with nothing
but the excrement of greed, hatred and delusion.
By totally washing away that excrement using
the principles of the Dhamma, the heart itself
becomes pure Dhamma. Once that happens,
it’s infinitely at ease. Wherever you go, you’re
at ease. “Nibbana is the ultimate void.” Whatever
is annihilated in that void, this you’ll know. Whatever remains there, this
also you’ll know. Who can know this better than one without defilements? The
Buddha, in saying that Nibbana is the ultimate void, was speaking from his
absolute freedom from defilement. He said this from having seen Nibbana. But
we haven’t seen it yet. No matter how much we repeat his words, we just stay
where we are. Investigate so that you truly see it. The saying “Nibbana is the
ultimate void” will no longer be a problem, because what is annihilated and
what’s not will be fully clear to the heart.

“Nibbana is the ultimate happiness.” Listen! The ultimate happiness here
isn’t a feeling of pleasure or happiness. Instead, it’s the happiness that comes
with the absolute purity of the heart, with no arising or ceasing like our feelings
of pleasure and pain. This has nothing to do with the three characteristics
of existence. The ultimate happiness as a constant feature of the pure heart has
absolutely nothing to do with the three characteristics, nothing at all to do with
impermanence, dissatisfaction and not-self – it doesn’t change, it always stays
just as it is.

The Buddha says Nibbana is constant. What’s constant? The pure heart
and nothing else; that’s what’s constant. Get so that you see it, get so that you
know."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:23 pm

Hi Geoff,

Do you agree that the stream entrant see the forward (samudaya) as well as the ceasing (nirodha) portions of the paticcasamuppada?

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:03 pm


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Nyana » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:25 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby Sylvester » Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:38 am

Thanks Geoff.

But it looks as if this bifurcation into paññattimatta and paramattha (implied from the former) seems only necessary if one approaches from a certain Abhidhammic angle. Your treatment of phassa echoes the Sautrantika thesis, whereas the Sarvastivadins and the Pali Dhammasangani accords phassa "dhamma" status : Karunadasa p.102.

Even if I go with the Sautrantika position that phassa is merely paññattimatta, this does not alter the fact the designation "phassa" describes the phenomenon of the triad of ayatana, indriya and vinnana. Which still brings us back to the question - can there be nana without this triad?

Might you happen to have at hand a sutta that expresses or implies the bifurcation of mindfulness and jhana into mundane and supramundane? What do you or your textual source mean by "supramundane"?

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:09 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


Return to “General Theravāda Meditation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mario92 and 30 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine