the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:48 am

Thrasymachus wrote:There will be no water for Americans in a decade or three. Some of the largest ancient aquifers in the world, located in the Midwest are being drawn down to produce fodder crop and supply the 6-10 billion land animals slaughtered yearly in the USA.


I don't think so. There's a lot of ocean water ready to be desalinized.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dharmagoat » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:08 am

Nighthawk wrote:There's a lot of ocean water ready to be desalinized.

This would require an enormous amount of energy. Another thing in short supply.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:20 am

dharmagoat wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:There's a lot of ocean water ready to be desalinized.

This would require an enormous amount of energy. Another thing in short supply.

That's when 4th generation safer and cleaner nuclear power plants start to pop up in order to pick up the slack.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thrasymachus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:04 am

Nighthawk, try read more so one day you can enter the real world. Nuclear power plants depend on an electric power grid for cooling or else they will meltdown -- like at Fukushima. Nuclear power plants also depend on billions of gallons of water daily for their cooling needs. See:
http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/inde ... y/id/21787

You like most want to believe everything is "fine". Such dandy illusions can exist only because capitalism insulates you from its production. People will have to live with less now or live with disaster in the future. Technological methods and relatively "cheap" energy have allowed this disease of separation and insulation to advance -- more technology cannot solve any problem, it can only make things worse. People will have to live by consuming less, by being less selfish and by allowing their sense of self to extend outside of own flesh. One of the best ways to do all this is to go vegan.
Last edited by Thrasymachus on Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby catmoon » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:06 am

Aaaaand just a reminder the topic is vegetariansim, not nuclear power.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:42 am

'Aside from the cycle of arguments about morality, ecology and Buddhism, here's a nice explanation of frankfurter manufacture:

''In vast metal vats, tons of pork trimmings are mixed with the pink slurry formed when chicken carcasses are squeezed through metal grates and blasted with water.
The mush is mixed with powdered preservatives, flavourings, red colouring and drenched in water before being squeezed into plastic tubes to be cooked and packaged.''


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z21987m3HR

Well, at least the water was as nature intended - well, except for flouride, anti-depressants, ..........................
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:54 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:'Aside from the cycle of arguments about morality, ecology and Buddhism, here's a nice explanation of frankfurter manufacture:

''In vast metal vats, tons of pork trimmings are mixed with the pink slurry formed when chicken carcasses are squeezed through metal grates and blasted with water.
The mush is mixed with powdered preservatives, flavourings, red colouring and drenched in water before being squeezed into plastic tubes to be cooked and packaged.''


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z21987m3HR

Well, at least the water was as nature intended - well, except for flouride, anti-depressants, ..........................

Your making me seriously want a hot dog. No, I mean for real. . .

Kevin
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:11 pm

Virgo wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:'Aside from the cycle of arguments about morality, ecology and Buddhism, here's a nice explanation of frankfurter manufacture:

''In vast metal vats, tons of pork trimmings are mixed with the pink slurry formed when chicken carcasses are squeezed through metal grates and blasted with water.
The mush is mixed with powdered preservatives, flavourings, red colouring and drenched in water before being squeezed into plastic tubes to be cooked and packaged.''


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z21987m3HR

Well, at least the water was as nature intended - well, except for flouride, anti-depressants, ..........................

Your making me seriously want a hot dog. No, I mean for real. . .

Kevin



Beware of the water! LOL :)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:
Beware of the water! LOL :)

Had em boiled. :)

Kevin
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:18 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:Nighthawk, try read more so one day you can enter the real world. Nuclear power plants depend on an electric power grid for cooling or else they will meltdown -- like at Fukushima. Nuclear power plants also depend on billions of gallons of water daily for their cooling needs. See:
http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/inde ... y/id/21787

You like most want to believe everything is "fine". Such dandy illusions can exist only because capitalism insulates you from its production. People will have to live with less now or live with disaster in the future. Technological methods and relatively "cheap" energy have allowed this disease of separation and insulation to advance -- more technology cannot solve any problem, it can only make things worse. People will have to live by consuming less, by being less selfish and by allowing their sense of self to extend outside of own flesh. One of the best ways to do all this is to go vegan.

You should also do some more reading. The Fukushima disaster was largely preventable. It had a lot to do with the earthquake but also carelessness by the Japanese government. Not to mention the fukushima plant was a 1962 design so it was outdated. 4th generation power plants will be able to withstand earthquakes and with following all regulations accordingly there should be no problems like that which we saw in Japan. Call me an optimist but new technology can and will solve problems. Nuclear energy is clean energy so an entire world powered by nuclear will be very good for the planet if used for the right reasons.

But going back on topic, veganism is a very noble ideal but to think that it will solve a lot of the problems is delusional. Even if it was true most people will never go vegan no matter how much organizations such as peta throw money in spouting their propaganda. It's an unrealistic goal that will never happen.
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Re: Vegetarianism in Zen, Chan, etc.

Postby Sara H » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:50 am

The Order Of Buddhist Contemplatives is vegetarian.

The monks are vegetarian and most lay people are too.

Generally speaking, most of the people will only eat meat if they have some sortof medical condition or medical necessity that requires it.

And, then, they just sort of bow to it and are grateful for it and mindful of it and try to do as little harm as possible given their medical/health requirements.

That's been my experience anyway.

"We eat, lest we become lean and die."

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thrasymachus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:48 am

No Nighthawk, you are not an optimist, just very unrealistic and selfish. You want to believe that the unrealistic middle class lifestyle based on the slavery and slaughter of billions of animals, the enslavement of the Global South to debt peonage and the treatment of the environment as a source only for materials is sustainable through new technical magic. The only realistic thing is to realize that it will end -- the only question is if it will be voluntary(unlikely) or via collapse.

The majority never cares about anything or ushers in any change. Most Westerners think being kind or generous is smiling to a stranger and holding the door open for them to a store. But that store contains goods wholly or partially sourced through slavery, debt peonage, environmental exploitation, etc. It is always organized, dedicated and empowered minorities that change things. If it was up to the unthinking majority, the whole world would be locked in total stasis and stagnation with no hope for improvement.

Also I would recommend supporting ADAPPT(Animals Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow) and not corrupt and reformist PETA.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:21 am

Thrasymachus wrote:The majority never cares about anything or ushers in any change. Most Westerners think being kind or generous is smiling to a stranger and holding the door open for them to a store. But that store contains goods wholly or partially sourced through slavery, debt peonage, environmental exploitation, etc. It is always organized, dedicated and empowered minorities that change things. If it was up to the unthinking majority, the whole world would be locked in total stasis and stagnation with no hope for improvement.


Sounds a lot like the great classical discussions of "virtue" and "justice", yet both the Hellenic and Roman worlds depended heavily on slaves (who were often prisoners of war or kidnapped women and children).
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:58 am

so....ummm...what's your point?
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Thrasymachus wrote:No Nighthawk, you are not an optimist, just very unrealistic and selfish. You want to believe that the unrealistic middle class lifestyle based on the slavery and slaughter of billions of animals, the enslavement of the Global South to debt peonage and the treatment of the environment as a source only for materials is sustainable through new technical magic. The only realistic thing is to realize that it will end -- the only question is if it will be voluntary(unlikely) or via collapse.

The majority never cares about anything or ushers in any change. Most Westerners think being kind or generous is smiling to a stranger and holding the door open for them to a store. But that store contains goods wholly or partially sourced through slavery, debt peonage, environmental exploitation, etc. It is always organized, dedicated and empowered minorities that change things. If it was up to the unthinking majority, the whole world would be locked in total stasis and stagnation with no hope for improvement.

Also I would recommend supporting ADAPPT(Animals Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow) and not corrupt and reformist PETA.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:33 am

Thrasymachus wrote:No Nighthawk, you are not an optimist, just very unrealistic and selfish. You want to believe that the unrealistic middle class lifestyle based on the slavery and slaughter of billions of animals, the enslavement of the Global South to debt peonage and the treatment of the environment as a source only for materials is sustainable through new technical magic. The only realistic thing is to realize that it will end -- the only question is if it will be voluntary(unlikely) or via collapse.

The majority never cares about anything or ushers in any change. Most Westerners think being kind or generous is smiling to a stranger and holding the door open for them to a store. But that store contains goods wholly or partially sourced through slavery, debt peonage, environmental exploitation, etc. It is always organized, dedicated and empowered minorities that change things. If it was up to the unthinking majority, the whole world would be locked in total stasis and stagnation with no hope for improvement.

Also I would recommend supporting ADAPPT(Animals Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow) and not corrupt and reformist PETA.

I'm "selfish" because I choose not to be vegan? The Dalai Lama isn't vegan so is he selfish? The sheer arrogance of vegans never ceases to amaze me. You can cry and complain all you want about how the world we live in is so horrible and unfair, but it will get you no where. The world will always be full of violence, debt peonage, environment exploitation etc. but guess what? That is the nature of samsara. That doesn't mean that we can't make this world a better place, we can but veganism is not the solution no matter how heartbreaking that may sound.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thrasymachus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:42 am

If you were not selfish you would not have grounds to believe in technological fantasies of "clean energy" or "sustainable energy". Another grounds is ignorance.

There will always be injustice, if unjust people find excuses in Buddhism and other doctrines to perpetuate injustice, instead of minimizing their personal participation in atrocities and then moving on to other people. Your "I give up", Buddhist fundamentalist attitude is a great example of why highly stratified and victimizing social orders are widely accepted and reign worldwide.
Last edited by Thrasymachus on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nighthawk » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:01 am

Everything happens for a reason which is why we have the doctrine of karma. Your quest for a utopia on this planet will be met with complete and utter failure just like many others who have tried and failed. Study Buddhist teachings and learn the nature of this world, the nature of people and then maybe you'll become a little more practical instead of wandering off in lala land dreaming that things one day will be perfect and everyone will live happily ever after.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Thrasymachus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:13 am

It is better to try and fail at something noble like animal liberation, than to make excuses to never try as I have said before.

If you got away from Buddhist fundamentalism as an excuse to be less attuned to the world you would realize that karma existed before Buddhism and that when a new doctrine appears it usually incorporates alot of what is already around. Karma theory has been used as an excuse for lots of injustice in Asia, it reminds me most of the corollary Western doctrine that the rich and powerful have a superior character and work ethic that entitles them to live lavishly by exploiting others. It is also very similar to speciesist notions that most animals worldwide deserve to suffer because they are lesser beings than humans. Thus they deserve to be treated only as raw inputs, to suffer immeasurably and finally to die in horrible ways because people want to wear them and they like their taste.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby catmoon » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:49 am

Ok this is getting out of hand. There are far too many personal remarks flying around. Please note that on a discussion board, we discuss the topics, not each other. Topic is locked until further notice.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:44 pm

Moderator-Admin note: Topic unlocked, but keep personal comments and attacks out of your posts. Keep posts to the issue at hand. Thanks for your cooperation.
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