Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?

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Re: Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:25 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: Does Dzogchen realization entail automatic virtuous behavior?


Yes, definitely. That is why "compassion" is the common translation for thugje, which is one of the qualities inherent in the basis. When you realize the basis, compassionate activity is automatic.


I'm interested in a cite.
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Re: Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?

Postby deepbluehum » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:27 pm

muni wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:"I[i]"In particular, if you follow those who say that although one realizes emptiness one must cultivate compassion elsewhere, you are similar to someone who claims that although one has water one must seek wetness elsewhere, that although one has fire one must seek warmth elsewhere, or that although one is fanned by the wind one must seek coolness elsewhere. The decisive experience of certainty that samsara and nirvana are supreme emptiness is itself unsurpassable awakened mind - compassion as the display of samsara and nirvana in the equalness and purity."
- Dudjom Lingpa


:good: Emaho!!!!!!!!!!! Many thanks.


Yes. This seems to be a good cite. Anyone have anything from the tantras resembling this, please?
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Re: Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?

Postby Sally Gross » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:33 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
That does make sense. Perhaps my phrasing of spontaneously arising moral ethics is off the mark. In Dzogchen it is said realization is spontaneously compassionate. I'm assuming this means spontaneously compassionate actions emit from this realization. And then I'm further assuming such actions are moral.

What do you think, Sally? Is the Buddha/Arahant's realization and Dzogchen any different?


Perhaps, to coin a term, such spontaneously compassionate actions are transmoral. They are most certainly not immoral, but rather than being moral actions in the context of a dualism of moral and immoral, they transcend that duality and the related duality of good or bad karmic resultants (vipaaka).

Is the Buddha /Arahant's realization and Dzogchen any different? I think not.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:00 am

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:I have a question about the context of moral ethics in Dzogchen. I understand in the context of Dzogchen realization one's compassion is non-directional and all-pervasive, and thus not a chosen attitude that one keeps reminding oneself about.


As it is said in the Nyinthig, the realization of emptiness is accompanied by the knowledge that engaging in non-virtue is pointless.

M


Absolutely. And with realization of one's natural state, all good qualities will spontaneously manifest. And with such realization, there is no longer any such division as thun and post-thun. But, of course, until such realization has manifest, great Dzogchen masters like Patrul Rinpoche have advised us to practice the Mahayana's 6 Perfections in our post-session lives.
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Re: Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:07 am

deepbluehum wrote:Does Dzogchen realization entail automatic virtuous behavior?


Dzogchen realization definitely entails automatic behavior that benefits others... However, there is the question of what to do until one has that realization and until it is very stable... Patrul Rinpoche speaks on this in his commentary on Garab Dorje's "Three Statements that Strike the Vital Point" (Tsig Sum Nedek). The commentary is entitled "The Special Teaching of the Wise and Glorious Sovereign"... It can be found in a few different translations, I think, including one with additional commentary by Khenchen Palden Sherab and Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal which is published as "The Lion's Gaze."
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Re: Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:31 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Does Dzogchen realization entail automatic virtuous behavior?


Dzogchen realization definitely entails automatic behavior that benefits others... However, there is the question of what to do until one has that realization and until it is very stable... Patrul Rinpoche speaks on this in his commentary on Garab Dorje's "Three Statements that Strike the Vital Point" (Tsig Sum Nedek). The commentary is entitled "The Special Teaching of the Wise and Glorious Sovereign"... It can be found in a few different translations, I think, including one with additional commentary by Khenchen Palden Sherab and Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal which is published as "The Lion's Gaze."


Yes. I'm familiar with this text. Thank you for the reference.
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Re: Spontaneously Arising Moral Ethics?

Postby oldbob » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:07 pm

muni wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:"I[i]"In particular, if you follow those who say that although one realizes emptiness one must cultivate compassion elsewhere, you are similar to someone who claims that although one has water one must seek wetness elsewhere, that although one has fire one must seek warmth elsewhere, or that although one is fanned by the wind one must seek coolness elsewhere. The decisive experience of certainty that samsara and nirvana are supreme emptiness is itself unsurpassable awakened mind - compassion as the display of samsara and nirvana in the equalness and purity."
- Dudjom Lingpa


:good: Emaho!!!!!!!!!!! Many thanks.


:good: extremely precise. Maybe the last sentence could also be written: compassion as the empty display of activity in the equal and unconditioned nature of the phenomena known as samsara and nirvana.

Not trying to improve the words of the great Terton Dudjom Lingpa, but suggesting another variation of saying the same thing, according to my small understanding of the meaning.

Hope this is of help to someone. :smile: :namaste:
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