How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Ikkyu
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Ikkyu » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:42 am

"Nothing can be known, not even this."
-- Arcesilaus (but I'm not sure)

(cutting through bullshit, and sometimes failing... that's ok, though)


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Ikkyu
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Ikkyu » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:47 am

"Nothing can be known, not even this."
-- Arcesilaus (but I'm not sure)

(cutting through bullshit, and sometimes failing... that's ok, though)


vairocanafollower
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby vairocanafollower » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:42 pm

You are already biased towards materialism. How do you expect us to fulfil your needs for answers if you have already made up your mind? You need to become a true sceptic in order to find the truth, which means withholding your beliefs till you find if something is right or wrong through investigation...

In the end of the day ‘materialism’ is just another religion with many blind followers, who will not sacrifice their own conclusions on how things work, in fear that they will have to deal with a Universe that is still in its entirety unknown to us...

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odysseus
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby odysseus » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:19 pm

Maybe this article may convince you to inquire further before drawing harsh conclusions...

http://www.integralscience.org/material ... alism.html
Disclaimer: I'm not a Buddhist teacher, I speak only from my own understanding. I cannot teach, but I can preach so don't preach to me.

Andrew108
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Andrew108 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:11 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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conebeckham
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:30 pm

Funny thing--empirical evidence regarding the "truth of Dharma" can only be found in one's own stream of experience. Not outside. The very notion of "empirical evidence" presupposes a subject/object dichotomy, a materialist stance which is the dominant paradigm amongst the vast majority of educated humans at this juncture. This sort of view creates myriad reflections, explanations, conceptual frameworks, which can never be more than descriptions, and therefore, partial by their very nature. Incomplete, and in fact, missing the crucial element, even when they are most skillful.

As a result of all this, all the dogma and conceptual proliferation, including that which compares and contrasts, for example, the Enlightenment of Buddhism with Moksha, Divine Grace, Ecstacy, or even the biochemical process of neurotransmitters in the brain, are beside the point, and will never capture the Truth of the Experience itself.

As Chogyal Namkai Norbu Rinpoche said to his son, "Even the Buddha couldn't make everyone happy."


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

undefineable
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby undefineable » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:39 pm


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catmoon
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby catmoon » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:51 am

The closest thing there is to empirical evidence for enlightenment woud be the fMRI studies done by Matthieu Ricard et al. What it adds up to is pretty clear evidence that long meditative training can make people happier, improve concentration, and maybe even speed up perception. It would also appear that these abilities increase with the amount of time spent in training. The logical extrapolation is that with sufficient time, practice and study, something like enlightenment is possible.

There are still holes in the argument, but they are being closed with a speed that skeptics might find alarming.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

Andrew108
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:54 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

undefineable
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby undefineable » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:57 pm


Andrew108
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:12 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Boeta
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Boeta » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:48 pm

Ikkyu, there is no empirical evidence that "enlightenment" exists. What can be stated though is that altered states of mind can be reached through meditation. I recommend reading some of what neuroscientist Sam Harris has written on the subject.


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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Monlam Tharchin » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:25 pm

How is an unconditioned state conditioned by the brain?
on hiatus since September, 2017

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dharmagoat
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby dharmagoat » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:37 pm

What's all this about enlightenment happening? Enlightenment is the natural state of the mind. The issue here is how we come to realise this, how we express it.

undefineable
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby undefineable » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:38 am


Andrew108
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Andrew108 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:07 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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dharmagoat
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby dharmagoat » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:54 am


Andrew108
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby Andrew108 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:34 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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odysseus
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby odysseus » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:36 pm

Disclaimer: I'm not a Buddhist teacher, I speak only from my own understanding. I cannot teach, but I can preach so don't preach to me.

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dharmagoat
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Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?

Postby dharmagoat » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:15 pm



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