transmissions, ngondro, samaya

[Sönam]

Nyintig is not the Garab Dorjé lineage of the 3 statements, it's a Vajrayana's terma and a tantric practice.

And 3 statements are related to the 3 divisions, Longdé for the 2nd statement ... as to use "any method ...", possibly because it's within the Dzogchen view to use any secondary practice that one can considere usefull depending on his circumstances.

Sönam

[Mariusz]

However, when you take The Three Statements of Garab Dorje (* Direct Introduction * Do not remain in doubt * Integrate into everyday life), the second states if you had Direct Introduction from the master and you are not sure you really recognized Rigpa yet, you should eliminate all your doubts by not only extraordinary Ngondro (Rushen practices of separating Mind from Rigpa) but also ordinary (outer and inner Ngondro, the four contemplations and the 5 practices). So I take the both as the real Ngondro.

DI first, then any method that eliminates doubt surely.

Of course, including also the method of Anuyoga with yidam, tsalung and tummo.... what you can find for example in Kunzang Gongpa Kundu (Kunzang Gongdu cycle):http://yeshekhorlo.mahajana.net/wp-content/gallery/materialy/awers.jpg. The cycle of initatiations from the link Rinpoche ended with the Direct Introduction. Everybody could receive them, because there was no need for ordinary Ngondro prior done. So "DI first".

[Mariusz]

Nyintig is not the Garab Dorjé lineage of the 3 statements, it's a Vajrayana's terma and a tantric practice.

And 3 statements are related to the 3 divisions, Longdé for the 2nd statement ... as to use "any method ...", possibly because it's within the Dzogchen view to use any secondary practice that one can considere usefull depending on his circumstances.

Sönam

As you read from my link above, it says "Dzogchen terma".

[Stewart]

However, when you take The Three Statements of Garab Dorje (* Direct Introduction * Do not remain in doubt * Integrate into everyday life), the second states if you had Direct Introduction from the master and you are not sure you really recognized Rigpa yet, you should eliminate all your doubts by not only extraordinary Ngondro (Rushen practices of separating Mind from Rigpa) but also ordinary (outer and inner Ngondro, the four contemplations and the 5 practices). So I take the both as the real Ngondro.

DI first, then any method that eliminates doubt surely.

Of course, including also the method of Anuyoga with yidam, tsalung and tummo.... what you can find for example in Kunzang Gongpa Kundu (Kunzang Gongdu cycle):http://yeshekhorlo.mahajana.net/wp-content/gallery/materialy/awers.jpg. The cycle of initatiations from the link Rinpoche ended with the Direct Introduction. Everybody could receive them, because there was no need for ordinary Ngondro prior done. So "DI first".

Yeah, that's what I was saying, Tulku Urgyen and sons taught/teach like this too.

Sonam: Yes, Nyingthig is a Dzogchen term, containing many methods but also always with Trekcho and Togal...including ChNN's own Longsal Nyingthig.

[Mariusz]

Yeah, that's what I was saying, Tulku Urgyen and sons taught/teach like this too.

Sonam: Yes, Nyingthig is a Dzogchen term, containing many methods but also always with Trekcho and Togal...including ChNN's own Longsal Nyingthig.

Yeah, ok

Considering the pure dreams of Namkhai Norbu, He said in a open webcast He don't know if they are the terma. It is what I genuine listened from Him, not what I read somewhere. So here can be the difference.

[Andrew108]

Mmmm, so your saying every Dzogchen practitioner who applys the 3 statements has to practice Longde?! I don't think that's quite right...DI first, then any method that eliminates doubt surly.

You can't eliminate doubt with secondary practices. The secondary practices are there to act as fuel for the original confidence. The confidence in the direct introduction is needed first. In all the three statements there is never a time when we don't have confidence. So doubt is not eliminated because actually there was no doubt in the beginning. If there was some doubt about the direct introduction then there are practices to get you to the point where you will have confidence in the direct introduction. You either have confidence and live with the inspiration / consequences of that confidence - or you have no confidence and try to practice in order to be ready for the direct introduction.

[Mariusz]

Mmmm, so your saying every Dzogchen practitioner who applys the 3 statements has to practice Longde?! I don't think that's quite right...DI first, then any method that eliminates doubt surly.

You can't eliminate doubt with secondary practices. The secondary practices are there to act as fuel for the original confidence. The confidence in the direct introduction is needed first. In all the three statements there is never a time when we don't have confidence. So doubt is not eliminated because actually there was no doubt in the beginning. If there was some doubt about the direct introduction then there are practices to get you to the point where you will have confidence in the direct introduction. You either have confidence and live with the inspiration / consequences of that confidence - or you have no confidence and try to practice in order to be ready for the direct introduction.

Don't you know the DI is for recognizing one's own Rigpa? DI is not a ritual. So for me it means the confidence in Rigpa. After it, there is 3 statement: Integrate this recognition into everyday life, whatever you will do. But you should have no doubts prior (2 statement). Moreover, as i know, you can recognize Rigpa even many years after DI because of whatever the method you will lead to it.

[Sönam]

Nyintig is not the Garab Dorjé lineage of the 3 statements, it's a Vajrayana's terma and a tantric practice.

And 3 statements are related to the 3 divisions, Longdé for the 2nd statement ... as to use "any method ...", possibly because it's within the Dzogchen view to use any secondary practice that one can considere usefull depending on his circumstances.

Sönam

As you read from my link above, it says "Dzogchen terma".

If you like it is, I won't contradict you ... and as everything is integrated in Dzogchen, one can see it is like that. Anyway there is no advantage for no one to continue that same old discussion "within the 9 yanas or self-complete"

Sönam
(nb: I'm not the only one to view it as such http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longchen_Nyingthig ... but I suppose it has no value)

[Sönam]

Mmmm, so your saying every Dzogchen practitioner who applys the 3 statements has to practice Longde?! I don't think that's quite right...DI first, then any method that eliminates doubt surly.

You can't eliminate doubt with secondary practices. The secondary practices are there to act as fuel for the original confidence. The confidence in the direct introduction is needed first. In all the three statements there is never a time when we don't have confidence. So doubt is not eliminated because actually there was no doubt in the beginning. If there was some doubt about the direct introduction then there are practices to get you to the point where you will have confidence in the direct introduction. You either have confidence and live with the inspiration / consequences of that confidence - or you have no confidence and try to practice in order to be ready for the direct introduction.

Don't you know the DI is for recognizing one's own Rigpa? DI is not a ritual. So for me it means the confidence in Rigpa. After it, there is 3 statement: Integrate this recognition into everyday life, whatever you will do. But you should have no doubts prior.

Di is the introduction ... then comes the recognition which does not necessary comes in the presence of the teacher. Therefore Longdé's practices are usefull to eliminate doubt ... but as you say, any (secondary) practice can be usefull for that purpose.

Sönam

[Stewart]

Mmmm, so your saying every Dzogchen practitioner who applys the 3 statements has to practice Longde?! I don't think that's quite right...DI first, then any method that eliminates doubt surly.

You can't eliminate doubt with secondary practices. The secondary practices are there to act as fuel for the original confidence. The confidence in the direct introduction is needed first. In all the three statements there is never a time when we don't have confidence. So doubt is not eliminated because actually there was no doubt in the beginning. If there was some doubt about the direct introduction then there are practices to get you to the point where you will have confidence in the direct introduction. You either have confidence and live with the inspiration / consequences of that confidence - or you have no confidence and try to practice in order to be ready for the direct introduction.

Andrew, I appreciate your 'teaching' but you are, once again, speaking as if you have stabilized the view. Don't confuse Dzogchenpa with Dzogchen. Confidence is the opposite of doubt. So secondary practices are there to stabilize confidence, therefore eliminating any doubts. If you are telling me that you have stabilized the view from the first DI, which you imply often, frankly I'm not sure who you are trying to convince.

[Stewart]

Nyintig is not the Garab Dorjé lineage of the 3 statements, it's a Vajrayana's terma and a tantric practice.

And 3 statements are related to the 3 divisions, Longdé for the 2nd statement ... as to use "any method ...", possibly because it's within the Dzogchen view to use any secondary practice that one can considere usefull depending on his circumstances.

Sönam

As you read from my link above, it says "Dzogchen terma".

If you like it is, I won't contradict you ... and as everything is integrated in Dzogchen, one can see it is like that. Anyway there is no advantage for no one to continue that same old discussion "within the 9 yanas or self-complete"

Sönam
(nb: I'm not the only one to view it as such http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longchen_Nyingthig ... but I suppose it has no value)

from your linked wikipedia article:

'Longchen Nyingthig (the heart-essence of infinite expanse, or the ultimate truth of the universal openness) is a cycle of mystical teachings that represent the innermost meditation of Dzogpa Chenpo [Dzogchen], revealed by the great scholar and adept Jigme Lingpa (1730-1798). Jigme Lingpa discovered them as a "mind ter" (or "mind treasure"), teachings that were discovered from the enlightened nature of the mind'

[Mariusz]

Nyintig is not the Garab Dorjé lineage of the 3 statements, it's a Vajrayana's terma and a tantric practice.

And 3 statements are related to the 3 divisions, Longdé for the 2nd statement ... as to use "any method ...", possibly because it's within the Dzogchen view to use any secondary practice that one can considere usefull depending on his circumstances.

Sönam

As you read from my link above, it says "Dzogchen terma".

If you like it is, I won't contradict you ... and as everything is integrated in Dzogchen, one can see it is like that.

Yes. As I wrote the 3 statements of Garab dorje integrate all including even ordinary Ngondro. Thanx

[heart]

Nyintig is not the Garab Dorjé lineage of the 3 statements, it's a Vajrayana's terma and a tantric practice.

And 3 statements are related to the 3 divisions, Longdé for the 2nd statement ... as to use "any method ...", possibly because it's within the Dzogchen view to use any secondary practice that one can considere usefull depending on his circumstances.

Sönam

The three statements are from the Nyinthig transmissions Sönam.
Only ChNNR teach the connection between three statements and Semde, Longde and Mengakde.
In Tibet actual practitioners of Semde and Longde have been very rare for hundreds of years, even ChNNR say he only practiced Mengakde in Tibet.

/magnus

[username]

Not all ngondros are interchangeable, for example Troma Nagmo Ngondro is specific. Khyentse Wangpo was one of the greatest masters of all time & a great terton but practiced ngondro daily till he died. Some masters like Dudjom devised very short ngondros due to modern times and others do not require it anymore. A lot of debates, but not all, on this or that, are redundant like pitting white wine against red as you can do either one or both. You can do Dzogchen 3 series practices and do whatever, ngondro or cycles etc., at the same time (or not) but also from Dzogchen POV. If one is only doing ngondro however, it is best to do it from the Dzogchen POV & get DI and semtri from the lama whenever one can too. A lot of rainbow bodies or those approved to have achieved the 4th vision by other great masters practiced the two stages of certain Dzogchen terma as many advanced students still do under the personal supervision of great masters to this day. Others achieved it by the 3 series.

Also many great masters are seeing better progression & results for some, but not all, westerners in Dzogchen Semde or Essence mahamudra. However we should not generalize and all can be practiced simultaneously. The Palyul for example teach Thogal before Trekcho. Also many lamas give exemptions for certain ngondros or certain percentage off when they see fit in the case of a particular student. So it is best to ask one's current lamas, not online as there is no one correct answer. Whatever one does, be it practice of whatever various levels or daily life activities is best done from the POV of Dzogchen or better yet while in rigpa in short but frequent occasions. And when the previous is not possible, by being present or generally mindful as the great patron of all high teachings in this cycle the Victor Shakyamuni said who also taught many teachings simultaneously.

Sarva Mangalam

[Malcolm]

Not all ngondros are interchangeable, for example Troma Nagmo Ngondro is specific.

An exception which proves the rule. The Troma ngondro (which I have practiced) is, as you say, very specific and interesting. It does not contain Vajrasattva, for example (Three kāya dakini purification is used instead), though it contains the rest, and so on.

However, the vast majority of Nyingma, Sakya, and Kagyu Ngondros are basically the same with small variations in order, and differ only in the actual words, but do not differ at all in the essence.

And all ngondros all have exactly the same point, as you will readily agree, i.e. Guru Yoga.

M

[pemachophel]

Just because all ngondro contain the same elements doesn't mean that you can mix and match those elements as you choose. I have never, ever heard that idea from any Tibetan Lama. In fact, just the opposite. Every Lama who I have heard speak on this point has always said one needs to do the ngondro as received. Further, since most ngondro these days in Nyingma are terma, they are the words of Guru Rinpoche; so one does not go changing or mixing them without a pretty high level of authority. While the idea of "working with circumstances" in a flexible manner is a great idea and a necessary corrective for overly traditional and conservative tendencies, like any idea, it has a time and place and can be taken too far. Willfully altering either the Guru's instructions or terma is, for me, a step too far. I have never heard of a practitioner whose first ngondro was not given to them by a Teacher. While the choice of doing second, third, or more ngondro may be up to individual choice, as far as I understand, that is not the case with the OP.

[Karma Dorje]

Just because all ngondro contain the same elements doesn't mean that you can mix and match those elements as you choose. I have never, ever heard that idea from any Tibetan Lama. In fact, just the opposite. Every Lama who I have heard speak on this point has always said one needs to do the ngondro as received. Further, since most ngondro these days in Nyingma are terma, they are the words of Guru Rinpoche; so one does not go changing or mixing them without a pretty high level of authority. While the idea of "working with circumstances" in a flexible manner is a great idea and a necessary corrective for overly traditional and conservative tendencies, like any idea, it has a time and place and can be taken too far. Willfully altering either the Guru's instructions or terma is, for me, a step too far. I have never heard of a practitioner whose first ngondro was not given to them by a Teacher. While the choice of doing second, third, or more ngondro may be up to individual choice, as far as I understand, that is not the case with the OP.

This is mere formalism. The intent of ngondro is to purify obscurations and generate punya. Some lamas will insist that you do this or that ngondro specific to a cycle of teaching, but that is not the essence of the teaching. Nobody is suggesting "mixing and matching". What is being suggested is that one can perform ngondro interchangeably as far as the essential purpose goes. My guru instructed me to use the words of whatever set of ngondro had most meaning for me.

[Malcolm]

Just because all ngondro contain the same elements doesn't mean that you can mix and match those elements as you choose.

You are not addressing a point that anyone has suggested. The OP wanted to know if they could change their ngondro practice, for example, and do a different one instead of the one they started with.

It is the opinion of some people this creates "traces" about not finishing this or that practice. It is the opinion of others that there is no fault at all. If you are interested in some other practice more than the one you are doing, then you can change. For example, if you are doing Sakya ngondro, but the decide you would rather do Longchen Nyinthig, then in my opinion, fine. If you have finished refuge/bodhicitta for example, and want to begin this new ngondro at Vajrasattva, then fine.

Refuge is Refuge. Why? Because if you are doing refuge correctly, not only do you imagine the gurus of the lineage specific that to that lineage, but you are always enjoined to understand the gurus and lineages of all teachings you have are present there as well. This is a universal instruction in every ngondro tradition. Therefore, for example if you are doing refuge in the Dudjom tersar ngondro, but have received Ngondro for something else like Sakya, Kagyu, etc., you are automatically including all those lineages. If you are doing a Nyingma ngondro, and it is dragging along, but become inspired by Karma Kagyu, and then you can approach this practice enthusiastically because you have a good connnection with that teacher, for example, then it is better for you to change your ngondro and not be stuck in conceptual limits.

If you go to a teacher, and you want mahāmudra teachings, and they decide to begin with the 18 hells (as happened to ChNN), then since you asked for their teachings, you respect that teacher and listen to their teaching, even if you know the subject perfectly. Why? Because you asked. You don't decide to reject that teacher's teachings because it is not conforming to your perfect wish.

However, if you have received teachings, respectfully, then you make sure in your own practice that you are focusing the essentials of whatever practice you have received, and you do the practice/s that are really working well for you. You should not be passive and always expect this or that lama to know what is best for you. You should take responsibility for yourself because we are not children that need to be taught step by step how to tie our shoes.

If anything, what western practitioners lack is balance -- on the one hand, some practitioners simply will not follow any guidance at all. On the other hand, some practitioners refuse to think for themselves and become completely passive. Niether of these approaches is good. Practitioners need to consult with their teachers on essential points, and also need to take responsibiliuty for their own practice and decide what is working, and what is not.

If you have the fortune of feeling that your teacher is an awakened person, like I do, then as username mentions, you should not be looking for any advice from anyone else but that person. If you do not have that feeling, then it is better not to invent it, and it is also better to take responsibility for your own practice and try to understand the essentials.

M

[conebeckham]

If anything, what western practitioners lack is balance -- on the one hand, some practitioners simply will not follow any guidance at all. On the other hand, some practitioners refuse to think for themselves and become completely passive. Niether of these approaches is good. Practitioners need to consult with their teachers on essential points, and also need to take responsibiliuty for their own practice and decide what is working, and what is not.

I liked your whole post, but especially this part....and I don't disagree with any of your points.

However, I can tell you all, from experience, that some great and highly respected teachers will require some students to do "a new Ngondro" even if they have "finished" a different one...

For example, I know a person who completed Kamtsang Ngondro, moved on to focus on some other Kagyu practices, and, after a period of time, connected with a new teacher and began focusing on Dudjom Tersar practices with that teacher. He was required by his new teacher to complete 10,000 of each of the accumulations using Dudjom Tersar ngondro. The super-short one, I think......

Of course, that student felt confident in his teacher's instruction, and it wasn't a problem. (There's a clue here....)

Some lineages have "ngondro" AFTER yidam practices. Generalizations are just that--not specific instructions.

In general, all ngondros are quite similar in purpose, if not the same, or similar, in "liturgical" construction or method. In an individual case, though, I think the decision as to which practice one should focus on, and this includes ngondros, should be made by the student and the teacher in consultation. In reality, I'd venture that people who practic ngondro do so because they have a connection with a specific teacher or teachers, in a specific lineage. Same for those who don't practice ngondro, for that matter.

If the essence of Ngondro is guru yoga, then this makes a lot of sense, don't you think?

[Mariusz]

Just because all ngondro contain the same elements doesn't mean that you can mix and match those elements as you choose.

You are not addressing a point that anyone has suggested. The OP wanted to know if they could change their ngondro practice, for example, and do a different one instead of the one they started with.

It is the opinion of some people this creates "traces" about not finishing this or that practice. It is the opinion of others that there is no fault at all. If you are interested in some other practice more than the one you are doing, then you can change. For example, if you are doing Sakya ngondro, but the decide you would rather do Longchen Nyinthig, then in my opinion, fine. If you have finished refuge/bodhicitta for example, and want to begin this new ngondro at Vajrasattva, then fine.

Refuge is Refuge. Why? Because if you are doing refuge correctly, not only do you imagine the gurus of the lineage specific that to that lineage, but you are always enjoined to understand the gurus and lineages of all teachings you have are present there as well. This is a universal instruction in every ngondro tradition. Therefore, for example if you are doing refuge in the Dudjom tersar ngondro, but have received Ngondro for something else like Sakya, Kagyu, etc., you are automatically including all those lineages. If you are doing a Nyingma ngondro, and it is dragging along, but become inspired by Karma Kagyu, and then you can approach this practice enthusiastically because you have a good connnection with that teacher, for example, then it is better for you to change your ngondro and not be stuck in conceptual limits.

If you go to a teacher, and you want mahāmudra teachings, and they decide to begin with the 18 hells (as happened to ChNN), then since you asked for their teachings, you respect that teacher and listen to their teaching, even if you know the subject perfectly. Why? Because you asked. You don't decide to reject that teacher's teachings because it is not conforming to your perfect wish.

However, if you have received teachings, respectfully, then you make sure in your own practice that you are focusing the essentials of whatever practice you have received, and you do the practice/s that are really working well for you. You should not be passive and always expect this or that lama to know what is best for you. You should take responsibility for yourself because we are not children that need to be taught step by step how to tie our shoes.

If anything, what western practitioners lack is balance -- on the one hand, some practitioners simply will not follow any guidance at all. On the other hand, some practitioners refuse to think for themselves and become completely passive. Niether of these approaches is good. Practitioners need to consult with their teachers on essential points, and also need to take responsibiliuty for their own practice and decide what is working, and what is not.

If you have the fortune of feeling that your teacher is an awakened person, like I do, then as username mentions, you should not be looking for any advice from anyone else but that person. If you do not have that feeling, then it is better not to invent it, and it is also better to take responsibility for your own practice and try to understand the essentials.

M

Yes. Ngondro as the method eliminating doubts for recoginizing one's Rigpa is not passive. 1)"DI first" 2)if not enough try ordinary Ngondro at least 10% 3)if not enough try extraordinary Rushen and other methods I wrote. It is what I learned from Kunzang Gongdu -a stands-alone complete system of Dzogchen. I'm not sure you can replace it's Ngondro with other Ngondro outside Dzogchen, for example from Kagyu Mahamudra. However there is also Norbu Gyatso Ngondro of Pema Lingpa which can be used instead as I know. One can cooporate always with Rinpoche what one should do instead. For example the program of the retreat in http://www.rigzingatsel.com/ contains the both Ngondros and other methods.