Another rebirth thread

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby dave » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:58 pm

termite wrote:
dave wrote:The principal mind-stream which is in constant change from one moment to the next, is never different nor is it the same.


I don't think you can separate "change" from "time." What you're calling "mind-stream," it seems to me, is nothing other than the manifestation of time itself. Time is inseparable from this mind. The "next moment" is co-created with the mind that perceives it.


No nature is a necessary factor for change to happen.
Mind knows, time can not know, it is not aware (knowing) without mind.
Time is the illusion of mind.
Because mind has no nature, (empty) every change can take place.
So time is no basis for nature.
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby termite » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:41 pm

dave wrote:
termite wrote:
dave wrote:The principal mind-stream which is in constant change from one moment to the next, is never different nor is it the same.


I don't think you can separate "change" from "time." What you're calling "mind-stream," it seems to me, is nothing other than the manifestation of time itself. Time is inseparable from this mind. The "next moment" is co-created with the mind that perceives it.


No nature is a necessary factor for change to happen.
Mind knows, time can not know, it is not aware (knowing) without mind.
Time is the illusion of mind.
Because mind has no nature, (empty) every change can take place.
So time is no basis for nature.


If mind is seen as a "stream," then there's time involved; I was pointing at "change." Mind is impermanent, or there would be no change. Other than that, considering that we agree that mind is empty, there's no "there" there.
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby muni » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:08 am

:namaste: Friend Termite! Hello there! How are you changing?
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby dave » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:05 pm

Hi Termite
What is change in connection with time?
First show us mind and then time.
If you are able to do so, we can discuss change and time in mind.

Dave
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby termite » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:51 pm

dave wrote:Hi Termite
What is change in connection with time?


Huh? Change is impossible if there is no time. Time is unmeasurable if there is no change. Change is seen, isn't it? Time can't be separated from experience. It's not an "illusion"; it's the unfolding process.

First show us mind and then time.
If you are able to do so, we can discuss change and time in mind.


The request doesn't make sense; it shows that you didn't understand what I posted.

How can one show "then" time, as if time followed from something "previous"? "Previous" is time, as is "subsequent."
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby termite » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:54 pm

muni wrote::namaste: Friend Termite! Hello there! How are you changing?


Grayer on top, slower of foot. :rolling:
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby muni » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:03 pm

:smile:

No illusion. Unchanging continuum.
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby dave » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:59 pm

termite wrote:
dave wrote:Hi Termite
What is change in connection with time?


Huh? Change is impossible if there is no time. Time is unmeasurable if there is no change. Change is seen, isn't it? Time can't be separated from experience. It's not an "illusion"; it's the unfolding process.

First show us mind and then time.
If you are able to do so, we can discuss change and time in mind.


The request doesn't make sense; it shows that you didn't understand what I posted.

How can one show "then" time, as if time followed from something "previous"? "Previous" is time, as is "subsequent."



Same I can say about you.
You have not understood what I have posted.
The topic is too advanced.
Termite, I will not disclose all aspects I could contribute to this topic.
My suggestion for you, study with a learned Kenpo, or Geshe or with your lama, some shastras, and get familiar with Tibetan Logic, Epistemology, Cittamatra text, Madyamaka and more....
This topic needs really more knowledge in order to be able to grasp all ins and outs.
There is no need to continual this discussion.
Best wishes, Dave
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby mudra » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:40 am

"Suppose compounded phenomena cycle:
If they are permanent, they do not cycle.
Even if they are impermanent, they do not cycle.
The same approach applies to sentient beings.

Suppose the person cycles:
Since when sought in the fivefold way
In the aggregates and in the sense spheres and in the elements,
He is not there, what cycles?"

Nagarjuna, Chapter XVI, Mulamadhyamakakarika
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby Indrajala » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:20 am

mudra wrote:"Suppose compounded phenomena cycle:
If they are permanent, they do not cycle.
Even if they are impermanent, they do not cycle.
The same approach applies to sentient beings.

Suppose the person cycles:
Since when sought in the fivefold way
In the aggregates and in the sense spheres and in the elements,
He is not there, what cycles?"

Nagarjuna, Chapter XVI, Mulamadhyamakakarika


In ultimate reality there is no person that transmigrates from life to life, but conventionally rebirth is real.

Quoting what you have isn't necessarily valuable to demonstrating the validity of rebirth.

It might be better to look at Abhidharma literature.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby mudra » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:27 pm

Huseng wrote:
In ultimate reality there is no person that transmigrates from life to life, but conventionally rebirth is real.

Quoting what you have isn't necessarily valuable to demonstrating the validity of rebirth.

It might be better to look at Abhidharma literature.


What was quoted was in response to a few posts ago discussing 'what gets reborn". It doesn't negate conventional reality. It just puts it into perspective.
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby termite » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:25 pm

dave wrote:The topic is too advanced.
...
There is no need to continual this discussion.


The topic is "advanced" because it is filled with a lot of hoo-ha. When the hoo-ha is dropped, it becomes a lot simpler. My suggestion for you is to sit. :)

Absent time, the discussion has never "continued" at all. It would not have come to this. :)
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby termite » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:27 pm

muni wrote::smile:

No illusion. Unchanging continuum.


We can go with that one. :)
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby White Lotus » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:17 pm

:smile:

No illusion. Unchanging continuum
.

no no illusion. no unchanging continuum... yes?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby termite » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:32 am

Wouldn't want to leave out our old friend "Changing Continuum," either. :rolling:
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby catmoon » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:18 am

termite wrote:Wouldn't want to leave out our old friend "Changing Continuum," either. :rolling:



Well geez, then we can't leave out "Changing Discontinuum" either!
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby muni » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:03 am

His Holiness Sakya Trizin: "We leave the body for unknown destination and take so many care of this body while mind remains under the control of defilements".

Mindfulness helps us right now to take care regarding rebirth. So great. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby termite » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:20 pm

catmoon wrote:
termite wrote:Wouldn't want to leave out our old friend "Changing Continuum," either. :rolling:



Well geez, then we can't leave out "Changing Discontinuum" either!


Yeah, but I'm not going to buy "Unchanging Discontinuum." :jumping:
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby White Lotus » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:10 pm

:namaste: termite that white beards getting long!

why not 'unchanging discontinuum'?

it still remains the same. nothing ever continues unchanged.

you going to take a shot at my pot?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Another rebirth thread

Postby termite » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:34 pm

White Lotus wrote::namaste: termite that white beards getting long!


:sage:

why not 'unchanging discontinuum'?

it still remains the same. nothing ever continues unchanged.

you going to take a shot at my pot?


Because I have a problem digesting the notion that if a thing discontinues, it remains unchanged. My problem, not yours, I'm sure... :thinking:

...

On second thought, we've surely been down this road before, so OK.

:rolling:
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