FAQ: Dzogchen Community of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

[Jikan]

invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.

[Dronma]

invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.

Thank you, Jikan!
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication).
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct.
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.

[Malcolm]

invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.

Thank you, Jikan!
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication).
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct.
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.

ChNN uses the term "invocation" for two distinctly different kinds of texts i.e. smon lam i.e. aspirations (pranidhāna) and gsol 'debs i.e. petitions (adhyeṣaṇā).

[Dronma]

invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.

Thank you, Jikan!
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication).
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct.
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.

ChNN uses the term "invocation" for two distinctly different kinds of texts i.e. smon lam i.e. aspirations (pranidhāna) and gsol 'debs i.e. petitions (adhyeṣaṇā).

So, it seems that the meaning of the one word: aspirations (smon lam - pranidhāna) is closer to invocation (επίκληση), and the other one: petitions (gsol 'debs - adhyeṣaṇā) is closer to supplication (ικεσία).
Since Rinpoche is using "invocation" for both, I don't see why we have to change anything.

[Sally Gross]

invocation implies bringing something into being (invoking it) with words. someone might invoke the power of a god in order to accomplish something.

supplication is what you do when you go to someone who is much more powerful than you (say a king or queen) and ask for help.

Thank you, Jikan!
The meanings of these 2 words are similar in Greek: επίκληση (invocation) and ικεσία (supplication).
In this case, I prefer "invocation" (επίκληση), because it is more direct.
"Supplication" presupposes a strong dualistic view.

In Hebrew there are two words, tefilla (תפילה) which is translated as "prayer",from the root "פלל", and tachanun (תחנון), which is best translated as "supplication", from the root "חנן". Neither of these words suggests invocation. The term for prayer, tefillah, literally means "to judge oneself". Rather than being conceived of as a way of twisting the arm of the deity (difficult to do when the deity in question is supposed to be incorporeal, timelessly eternal and immutable, inter alia), it is best understood as a means of self-education or self-transformation. Tachanun -- supplication -- comes from the word for kindness or grace and asks for this. The notion is dualistic: there is the source of kindness and grace, one the one hand; and on the other hand, there is the supplicant.

In the context of Dharma, I also agree with Dronma that "invocation" is better than "supplication", but wonder whether the Jewish scholars' "take" on prayer as self-judgment and self-transformation doesn't capture an important part of the intention of Dharma-related practices as well, something which neither "Invocation" nor "Supplication" capture.

[Blue Garuda]

I don't think the word used matters at all. LOL

As long as ChNNR uses a word in a consistent way he can use any word he likes and it would not make any difference.

Terminology is only useful if it is consistent and its meaning is shared accurately.

Maybe he could invent a few - 'incorcism' to link minds with a deity, or 'exvocation' to tell a harmful spirit to clear off.

Of course, we have the added dimension in Dzogchen of a shared state and the vocabulary around that.

I don't think ChNNR needs to comply with our linguistic expectations or teach in line with other Dzogchen teachers.

Occasionally etymology does have a use, such as when a council (apocryphally?) decided to replace the words 'manual, 'manhole'' and 'manager' as they may offend women, until it was pointed out that the words related to the Latin 'manus' (hand) and not to 'man'. We also accept many words used very differently according to the context, such as with the management jargon a person may be expected to spray into a job interview in order to impress people.

Enough of this circumlocutory peregrination !

This being a FAQ thread I think we should simply be listing the vocabulary and meaning as used by ChNNR rather than debating the alternatives.

[Andrew108]

Supplication and invocation mean to 'bring into experience'. Whichever works for you.

[Simon E.]

Anyhoo folks, the next Direct Tranmission is due next month....

[Sally Gross]

This being a FAQ thread I think we should simply be listing the vocabulary and meaning as used by ChNNR rather than debating the alternatives.

You're right about this. Perhaps one of the mods should clean the thread and use the lexically excavated invocation material for a new thread, in order to maintain the character of this thread as a FAQ. -- even though I'm a prime offender in this case!

[Blue Garuda]

This being a FAQ thread I think we should simply be listing the vocabulary and meaning as used by ChNNR rather than debating the alternatives.

You're right about this. Perhaps one of the mods should clean the thread and use the lexically excavated invocation material for a new thread, in order to maintain the character of this thread as a FAQ. -- even though I'm a prime offender in this case!

No, I started the thread and meandered quite early on. LOL

FAQ is for answering questions, and it is good to chew over the possibilities and nuances sometimes.

It's actually only very recently that I grasped the basic vocabulary such as 'rigpa' and 'marigpa' so I'm grateful for any signposts on terminology.

[Blue Garuda]

GARUDA AS PRACTISED IN THE DZOGCHEN COMMUNITY - AN OVERVIEW:

http://bluegaruda.com/2012/08/07/444/

[conebeckham]

Interesting conversation about "Supplication" and "Invocation."

Namdrol, or anyone else, can you tell me how CNNR translates "Chendren" (spyan.'dren)? "Invitation?"

Perhaps it's not a word used in DC?