Another rebirth thread

[dave]

The principal mind-stream which is in constant change from one moment to the next, is never different nor is it the same.

I don't think you can separate "change" from "time." What you're calling "mind-stream," it seems to me, is nothing other than the manifestation of time itself. Time is inseparable from this mind. The "next moment" is co-created with the mind that perceives it.

No nature is a necessary factor for change to happen.
Mind knows, time can not know, it is not aware (knowing) without mind.
Time is the illusion of mind.
Because mind has no nature, (empty) every change can take place.
So time is no basis for nature.

[termite]

The principal mind-stream which is in constant change from one moment to the next, is never different nor is it the same.

I don't think you can separate "change" from "time." What you're calling "mind-stream," it seems to me, is nothing other than the manifestation of time itself. Time is inseparable from this mind. The "next moment" is co-created with the mind that perceives it.

No nature is a necessary factor for change to happen.
Mind knows, time can not know, it is not aware (knowing) without mind.
Time is the illusion of mind.
Because mind has no nature, (empty) every change can take place.
So time is no basis for nature.

If mind is seen as a "stream," then there's time involved; I was pointing at "change." Mind is impermanent, or there would be no change. Other than that, considering that we agree that mind is empty, there's no "there" there.

[muni]

Friend Termite! Hello there! How are you changing?

[dave]

Hi Termite
What is change in connection with time?
First show us mind and then time.
If you are able to do so, we can discuss change and time in mind.

Dave

[termite]

Hi Termite
What is change in connection with time?

Huh? Change is impossible if there is no time. Time is unmeasurable if there is no change. Change is seen, isn't it? Time can't be separated from experience. It's not an "illusion"; it's the unfolding process.

First show us mind and then time.
If you are able to do so, we can discuss change and time in mind.

The request doesn't make sense; it shows that you didn't understand what I posted.

How can one show "then" time, as if time followed from something "previous"? "Previous" is time, as is "subsequent."

[termite]

:namaste: Friend Termite! Hello there! How are you changing?

Grayer on top, slower of foot.

[muni]

No illusion. Unchanging continuum.

[dave]

Hi Termite
What is change in connection with time?

Huh? Change is impossible if there is no time. Time is unmeasurable if there is no change. Change is seen, isn't it? Time can't be separated from experience. It's not an "illusion"; it's the unfolding process.

First show us mind and then time.
If you are able to do so, we can discuss change and time in mind.

The request doesn't make sense; it shows that you didn't understand what I posted.

How can one show "then" time, as if time followed from something "previous"? "Previous" is time, as is "subsequent."

Same I can say about you.
You have not understood what I have posted.
The topic is too advanced.
Termite, I will not disclose all aspects I could contribute to this topic.
My suggestion for you, study with a learned Kenpo, or Geshe or with your lama, some shastras, and get familiar with Tibetan Logic, Epistemology, Cittamatra text, Madyamaka and more....
This topic needs really more knowledge in order to be able to grasp all ins and outs.
There is no need to continual this discussion.
Best wishes, Dave

[mudra]

"Suppose compounded phenomena cycle:
If they are permanent, they do not cycle.
Even if they are impermanent, they do not cycle.
The same approach applies to sentient beings.

Suppose the person cycles:
Since when sought in the fivefold way
In the aggregates and in the sense spheres and in the elements,
He is not there, what cycles?"

Nagarjuna, Chapter XVI, Mulamadhyamakakarika

[Indrajala]

"Suppose compounded phenomena cycle:
If they are permanent, they do not cycle.
Even if they are impermanent, they do not cycle.
The same approach applies to sentient beings.

Suppose the person cycles:
Since when sought in the fivefold way
In the aggregates and in the sense spheres and in the elements,
He is not there, what cycles?"

Nagarjuna, Chapter XVI, Mulamadhyamakakarika

In ultimate reality there is no person that transmigrates from life to life, but conventionally rebirth is real.

Quoting what you have isn't necessarily valuable to demonstrating the validity of rebirth.

It might be better to look at Abhidharma literature.

[mudra]

In ultimate reality there is no person that transmigrates from life to life, but conventionally rebirth is real.

Quoting what you have isn't necessarily valuable to demonstrating the validity of rebirth.

It might be better to look at Abhidharma literature.

What was quoted was in response to a few posts ago discussing 'what gets reborn". It doesn't negate conventional reality. It just puts it into perspective.

[termite]

The topic is too advanced.
...
There is no need to continual this discussion.

The topic is "advanced" because it is filled with a lot of hoo-ha. When the hoo-ha is dropped, it becomes a lot simpler. My suggestion for you is to sit.

Absent time, the discussion has never "continued" at all. It would not have come to this.

[termite]

:smile:

No illusion. Unchanging continuum.

We can go with that one.

[White Lotus]

:smile:

No illusion. Unchanging continuum

.

no no illusion. no unchanging continuum... yes?

[termite]

Wouldn't want to leave out our old friend "Changing Continuum," either.

[catmoon]

Wouldn't want to leave out our old friend "Changing Continuum," either.

Well geez, then we can't leave out "Changing Discontinuum" either!

[muni]

His Holiness Sakya Trizin: "We leave the body for unknown destination and take so many care of this body while mind remains under the control of defilements".

Mindfulness helps us right now to take care regarding rebirth. So great.

[termite]

Wouldn't want to leave out our old friend "Changing Continuum," either.

Well geez, then we can't leave out "Changing Discontinuum" either!

Yeah, but I'm not going to buy "Unchanging Discontinuum."

[White Lotus]

termite that white beards getting long!

why not 'unchanging discontinuum'?

it still remains the same. nothing ever continues unchanged.

you going to take a shot at my pot?

[termite]

:namaste: termite that white beards getting long!

why not 'unchanging discontinuum'?

it still remains the same. nothing ever continues unchanged.

you going to take a shot at my pot?

Because I have a problem digesting the notion that if a thing discontinues, it remains unchanged. My problem, not yours, I'm sure...

...

On second thought, we've surely been down this road before, so OK.