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the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread - Page 22 - Dhamma Wheel

the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rowyourboat
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:46 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:58 pm

From the same talk:

"As soon as we destroy avijja-paccaya sankhara, what happens? Avijjayatveva asesaviraga-nirodha sankhara nirodho -- 'All that is needed is for unawareness to be completely disbanded from the heart, then nirodho hoti -- everything else is disbanded.' What do you say to that? Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti -- 'All that is needed is for unawareness to be utterly disbanded, and everything -- the entire mass of suffering and stress -- is disbanded.' And that which knows that unawareness is disbanded, that's the pure one. How can that pure one disband or be annihilated? It's an utter truth."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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ground
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby ground » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:42 am


rowyourboat
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:47 pm

Hi TMingyur,

No nibbana cult - keep it nice and clean. Not too much talk on suffering.

Ok then.

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Dmytro
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby Dmytro » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:57 pm

Hi,

There's a good sutta on this subject:

'Now, at that time this evil supposition had arisen to Ven. Yamaka: "As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more (mental) effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

On the the other hand, the translation of 'vinnanam anidassanam' as a kind of consciousness is dubious:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5618

Metta, Dmytro


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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:17 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:42 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

mlswe
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:25 pm

yeah that "one" in "pure one" seems so uneccesary from a dhamma perspective, nibbana is called the unconditioned, not the unconditioned one

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:30 pm

Last edited by kirk5a on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

mlswe
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:53 pm

maybe i was too rash posting while not delving deeply enough in the contents of discussion. However that "one" stood out.

observation: your tone seems to imply that certain persons, teachings, and the multitudes of copys of them are beyond inquery. Reveration has its place but sometimes it can fool us.

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:13 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

mlswe
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:53 pm

because this is text and not speech i am obviously missing many subtleties but the way you phrased it, words and order etc gave me that feeling. But it seems i was wrong, thats good too :)

wishing you well and thanks for replying

rowyourboat
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:10 am

Vinnana causes mental-material phenomena
Mental-material phenomena causes vinnana (consciouness)

Do you posit self-existent phenomena?

If that which is aware is disbanded, aggregates cease.

The bigger question is- why is there so much resistance to a moment of cessation in multiple moments of arising bliss? Sounds like attachment to aggregates to me. :stirthepot:

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pegembara
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby pegembara » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:38 am

Having nothing,
clinging to nothing:
that is the Island,
there is no other;
that is Nibbæna, I tell you,
the total ending of ageing and death.
~ SN 1094


This is why the metaphor of ‘The Island that you cannot go beyond’ is so
very powerful, because it points to the principle of an awareness that you can’t get
beyond. It’s very simple, very direct, and you can’t conceive it. You have to trust
it. You have to trust this simple ability that we all have to be fully present and fully
awake, and begin to recognize the grasping and the ideas we have taken on about
ourselves, about the world around us, about our thoughts and perceptions and
feelings.
The way of mindfulness is the way of recognizing conditions just as they
are. We simply recognize and acknowledge their presence, without blaming them
or judging them or criticizing them or praising them. We allow them to be, the
positive and the negative both. And, as we trust in this way of mindfulness more
and more, we begin to realize the reality of ‘The Island that you cannot go
beyond.’

It is a place, as Ajahn Chah said, where you experience “the reality of non-grasping.”



The Island

AN ANTHOLOGY OF THE
BUDDHA’S TEACHINGS
ON NIBBANA

http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?o ... &Itemid=25
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:21 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

mlswe
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:32 pm

Last edited by mlswe on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:53 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

fabianfred
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby fabianfred » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:50 am

Here in Thailand I would imagine the majority of lay people hope for rebirth in the heaven realms, perhaps because they are afraid of Nibbana.
Heaven can be imagined but Nibbana cannot. They do not want to stop existing and suspect that that is what Nibbana is. Certainly Nibbana is no more rebirth (as we understand it)...in all the 31 realms of Samsara.

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:42 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

fabianfred
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby fabianfred » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:10 pm

Not my interpretation at all....but perhaps that of many Thais and Thai monks.
Personally I think that once having reached Arahant and died from this final existence in Samsara then perhaps it is like entering a new dimension. This would be unexplainable to us, stuck in our little three dimensional world, incomprehensible.
Ajarn Mun talked about past Buddhas and Arahants visiting him to teach him the Dhamma after he had attained to Arahant. Whether they came taking a physical form, or as Nimitta during meditation, they obviously have not just disappeared and are able to interact with those still stuck in Samsara.


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