ChNN's terminology

[Sherlock]

So primordial state = dharmata = presence
instant presence = state of guruyoga = rigpa/vidya?

Just now he just stated that we should remain in the primordial state during SoV, of course he probably said it before, I was under the impression that you should be in rigpa for the SoV.

[Dechen Norbu]

Rigpa is the recognition of the primordial state (not the primordial sate). Marigpa is the lack of recognition of the primordial state.
If you can rest in the primordial state, you should try to do so when sounding the SoV, integrating it. If you can't, by sounding it you enhance your possibilities to discover it. While sounding it, just stay aware of the sound, be present and relaxed. Let all experiences self liberate without going after them (thoughts, noises, images, whatever experiences may arise). At the end, try to remain in that clarity for a short few seconds.

[Sherlock]

Rigpa is the recognition of the primordial state (not the primordial sate). Marigpa is the lack of recognition of the primordial state.

Yes, I know this, but is this the same as "presence" (not "instant" presence which is rigpa/vidya) in the sense that he says? This is the confusing part of his terminology IMO.

[trevor]

What about released shine? Is it equal with instant presence?

[Dechen Norbu]

Rigpa is the recognition of the primordial state (not the primordial sate). Marigpa is the lack of recognition of the primordial state.

Yes, I know this, but is this the same as "presence" (not "instant" presence which is rigpa/vidya) in the sense that he says? This is the confusing part of his terminology IMO.

Recognition of the primordial state is not "presence". Presence is mindfulness. Discovering instant presence is rigpa.

[Dechen Norbu]

What about released shine? Is it equal with instant presence?

Not equal, but it is when you achieve released shine that you discover it. It is not the only method of course, but it is like that if you are practicing according to the Semde series. So, it's then that you really become a Dzogchen practitioner.

[Sherlock]

Rigpa is the recognition of the primordial state (not the primordial sate). Marigpa is the lack of recognition of the primordial state.

Yes, I know this, but is this the same as "presence" (not "instant" presence which is rigpa/vidya) in the sense that he says? This is the confusing part of his terminology IMO.

Recognition of the primordial state is not "presence". Presence is mindfulness. Discovering instant presence is rigpa.

Instant presence = rigpa/vidya. This is clear.

But does "presence" = the primordial state/dharmata? Not "recognition" of the primordial state, just the primordial state.

[Dechen Norbu]

Rigpa is recognizing instant presence, not instant presence. Instant presence is the natural state. Rigpa=recognition of the natural state; Ma (the negation of) rigpa= you don't recognize the natural state. It's a subtlety and I'm not sure all teachers use it this way.

[Blue Garuda]

I thought I had recorded his teaching on White A leading into SoV correctly, but perhaps not.

My notes: ''At the end of the White A practice, we are not becoming Emptiness, we are Experiencing Emptiness. This is the state of Instant Presence.

This is not Rigpa. The primordial nature of the Mind is the Dharmakaya, but Rigpa is beyond Mind. ''

Of course, if someone has attained a state defined as Rigpa, staying in it for SoV makes sense, as does remaining it it at other times.

I'd be grateful if someone could unscramble my notes if incorrect. Unscrambling my head is a task beyond any mortal.

Ta.

Edit, from the books I have :
Instant presence is the state of Guruyoga. (Guruyoga)
Instant Presence is not the same as experiencing Emptiness (Guruyoga)
Shine, clam state is not Instant Presence (Guruyoga)

This pure presence, this ground of awareness, neither rejecting nor following thought, is what is mean by the Tibetan term 'Rigba'. (Crystal and wo Light)

Marigpa is the root ignorance of the dualistic mind. (Crystal and wo Light)

If one cannot find the pure PRESENCE OF RIGBA, one will never find Zogqen: to find Zogqen one must bring for the naked STATE OF RIGBA.
(Crystal and wo Light)

I am now more confused - Rigpa is awareness of a state, and a state which the master transmits during DI, according to Crystal and wo Light: Path)

[Dechen Norbu]

But does "presence" = the primordial state/dharmata? Not "recognition" of the primordial state, just the primordial state.

Instant presence (not presence, which is mindfulness) is the natural state.

[Dechen Norbu]

I thought I had recorded his teaching on White A leading into SoV correctly, but perhaps not.

My notes: ''At the end of the White A practice, we are not becoming Emptiness, we are Experiencing Emptiness. This is the state of Instant Presence.

Yes. You experience emptiness, but you are not it. There's awareness, meaning you don't cease to exist. That awareness, I don't love the word, but alas... that which remains after you dissolve everything in emptiness and are realy having that experience of emptiness - also not so easy as one may think - is instant presence. This is subtle and experiential. We may take mental production as being instant presence. One needs to be careful here because it's very easy to miss instant presence.

This is not Rigpa. The primordial nature of the Mind is the Dharmakaya, but Rigpa is beyond Mind. ''

Yes, rigpa is the recognition of the nature of mind, not the nature of mind. As such, is beyond mind.

Of course, if someone has attained a state defined as Rigpa, staying in it for SoV makes sense, as does remaining it it at other times.

I'd be grateful if someone could unscramble my notes if incorrect. Unscrambling my head is a task beyond any mortal.

Ta.

I don't know if they were incorrect. You know how is Rinpoche's English...
I hope it helped.
Keep in mind that I'm probably not the best person to answer you!

[Sherlock]

OK this old thread is helpful.

Anyway, my question is whether the state you try to maintain while singing the SoV is called "presence".

[Blue Garuda]

I thought I had recorded his teaching on White A leading into SoV correctly, but perhaps not.

My notes: ''At the end of the White A practice, we are not becoming Emptiness, we are Experiencing Emptiness. This is the state of Instant Presence.

Yes. You experience emptiness, but you are not it. There's awareness, meaning you don't cease to exist. That awareness, I don't love the word, but alas... that which remains after you dissolve everything in emptiness and are realy having that experience of emptiness - also not so easy as one may think - is instant presence. This is subtle and experiential. We may take mental production as being instant presence. One needs to be careful here because it's very easy to miss instant presence.

This is not Rigpa. The primordial nature of the Mind is the Dharmakaya, but Rigpa is beyond Mind. ''

Yes, rigpa is the recognition of the nature of mind, not the nature of mind. As such, is beyond mind.

Of course, if someone has attained a state defined as Rigpa, staying in it for SoV makes sense, as does remaining it it at other times.

I'd be grateful if someone could unscramble my notes if incorrect. Unscrambling my head is a task beyond any mortal.

Ta.

I don't know if they were incorrect. You know how is Rinpoche's English...
I hope it helped.
Keep in mind that I'm probably not the best person to answer you!

Well, I've edited my post according to what I found in the books - and I'm not much the wiser as Rigba is defined as the STATE, and the awareness of it, in the same page even......my head hurts. LOL

[Andrew108]

Rigpa is the recognition of the primordial state (not the primordial sate).

It's actually both. It's not that rigpa and the primordial state are fundamentally different.
With the Direct Introduction and the inspiration of Guruyoga the meaning of all of these terms is found in experience. They are not new experiences waiting to happen or intellectually worked out. Instant presence isn't a transformation or extension of presence for example. It's more that we see the fact of experience (without any dualistic twisting of it) and then we taste what experience is really like as a fact in and of itself. This of course is the transmission we plug into from the teacher. The strange fact of experience and the nature of that experience. In Dzogchen the teacher is all about the Direct Introduction. In other systems and tantras the role of the teacher is somewhat different. And so working with the DI and 'ordinary' experience is very important.
You might want to look at the 'Song of the Vajra'. The 'Song of the Vajra' is like a description of this 'fact of experience' - describing the qualities of the 'fact of experience'. From Longchenpa's translation you get terms like ''birthless, yet continues on''; ''uninterrupted''; ''ever present, yet neither comes nor goes''; Perfect in itself'' and so on. These terms are all describing the fact of experience as 'instant presence' and how we get into 'instant presence' or recognize it.
You can find out more about this in ChNN's 'The Three Paths of Liberation.' May be you already have a copy.

[Dechen Norbu]

Humm, still don't know what to make of it, but you make some good points.
Still guys, remember that it is only a word.

edit: read closer what you said and yes, when you recognize instant presence you are instant presence. It's not a movement of the mind. So you are making sense there. Perhaps in the end this is a matter of semantics and I don't find it really important. Rigpa as solely the recognition or also as the state... as soon as one tastes it, it really doesn't matter.

[Dechen Norbu]

OK this old thread is helpful.

Anyway, my question is whether the state you try to maintain while singing the SoV is called "presence".

If you can't rest in the natural state while doing it, then yes. It's "presence" that equals being mindful.

[Dechen Norbu]

Edit, from the books I have :
Instant presence is the state of Guruyoga. (Guruyoga)

Check.

Instant Presence is not the same as experiencing Emptiness (Guruyoga)

Check.

Shine, clam state is not Instant Presence (Guruyoga)

Check.

This pure presence, this ground of awareness, neither rejecting nor following thought, is what is mean by the Tibetan term 'Rigba'. (Crystal and wo Light)

Yes, that's how I was used to understand the meaning of the word. But then I moved to assume it meant the recognition, not the actual state.

Marigpa is the root ignorance of the dualistic mind. (Crystal and wo Light)

Check.

If one cannot find the pure PRESENCE OF RIGBA, one will never find Zogqen: to find Zogqen one must bring for the naked STATE OF RIGBA.
(Crystal and wo Light)

Those phonetics used in DC kill me.
Yes, taking Rigpa as the state here, not just the recognition. But then Marigpa would be what? The anti state? This is one of the reasons why seeing rigpa as the recognition of the natural state seems to make more sense. Then its negation (indicated by Ma) would be the lack of recognition of it.

I am now more confused - Rigpa is awareness of a state, and a state which the master transmits during DI, according to Crystal and wo Light: Path)

In terms of practice, this is absolutely irrelevant. What ChNN transmits is the possibility to recognize the natural state. You can't transmit the natural state! It's everyone's state already. We just need to discover it.

[Blue Garuda]

That's much clearer. Thanks!

Oh, my typo - the book did say bring 'forth' so it's not that bad.

As you say, a word, just as a Japanese may put a label upon 'Mushin' to describe the indescribable and immeasurable: http://www.budodojo.com/FiveSpiritsOfBudo.htm

There is certainly a state I enter by the end of the White A practice, and perhaps it doesn't need a label. it's actually quite an effort to leave it, and it feels very natural, so that's fine for now. I can't sustain much in the SoV as the words and melody are still unfamiliar. However, I can sustain it when listening to ChNNR chanting it. I don't mind slow progress. LOL

[Dechen Norbu]

You see, when ChNN gives direct introduction, that means he introduces you to the natural state, the same state he is in (thus Guru Yoga). When one fails to recognize it, one practices and may discover it later.
If you have doubts about it, this is the reason for all those practices we have: for one to make sure that one has actually recognized the natural state and not some mental production, to separate nirvana and samsara, what is mind made and what is beyond mind. From Guru Yoga to the SoV, from the rushens to the semdzins and so on there are many methods available.

[Blue Garuda]

You see, when ChNN gives direct introduction, that means he introduces you to the natural state, the same state he is in (thus Guru Yoga). When one fails to recognize it, one practices and may discover it later.
If you have doubts about it, this is the reason for all those practices we have: for one to make sure that one has actually recognized the natural state and not some mental production, to separate nirvana and samsara, what is mind made and what is beyond mind. From Guru Yoga to the SoV, from the rushens to the semdzins and so on there are many methods available.

Yup. The one thing I don't want is to spend aeons in some sort of intellectual analysis. Lord knows I've had enough of that with Madhyamaka etc.

I'd rather connect with a Bison than a Boson. LOL