ChNN's terminology

Sherlock
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ChNN's terminology

Postby Sherlock » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:50 pm

So primordial state = dharmata = presence
instant presence = state of guruyoga = rigpa/vidya?

Just now he just stated that we should remain in the primordial state during SoV, of course he probably said it before, I was under the impression that you should be in rigpa for the SoV.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:49 pm

Rigpa is the recognition of the primordial state (not the primordial sate). Marigpa is the lack of recognition of the primordial state.
If you can rest in the primordial state, you should try to do so when sounding the SoV, integrating it. If you can't, by sounding it you enhance your possibilities to discover it. While sounding it, just stay aware of the sound, be present and relaxed. Let all experiences self liberate without going after them (thoughts, noises, images, whatever experiences may arise). At the end, try to remain in that clarity for a short few seconds.

Sherlock
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Sherlock » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:04 pm


trevor
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby trevor » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:09 pm

What about released shine? Is it equal with instant presence?

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:11 pm


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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:15 pm


Sherlock
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Sherlock » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:20 pm


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Dechen Norbu
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:24 pm

Rigpa is recognizing instant presence, not instant presence. Instant presence is the natural state. Rigpa=recognition of the natural state; Ma (the negation of) rigpa= you don't recognize the natural state. It's a subtlety and I'm not sure all teachers use it this way.
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:24 pm

I thought I had recorded his teaching on White A leading into SoV correctly, but perhaps not.

My notes: ''At the end of the White A practice, we are not becoming Emptiness, we are Experiencing Emptiness. This is the state of Instant Presence.

This is not Rigpa. The primordial nature of the Mind is the Dharmakaya, but Rigpa is beyond Mind. ''

Of course, if someone has attained a state defined as Rigpa, staying in it for SoV makes sense, as does remaining it it at other times.

I'd be grateful if someone could unscramble my notes if incorrect. Unscrambling my head is a task beyond any mortal. :crazy:

Ta. :)

Edit, from the books I have :
Instant presence is the state of Guruyoga. (Guruyoga)
Instant Presence is not the same as experiencing Emptiness (Guruyoga)
Shine, clam state is not Instant Presence (Guruyoga)

This pure presence, this ground of awareness, neither rejecting nor following thought, is what is mean by the Tibetan term 'Rigba'. (Crystal and wo Light)

Marigpa is the root ignorance of the dualistic mind. (Crystal and wo Light)

If one cannot find the pure PRESENCE OF RIGBA, one will never find Zogqen: to find Zogqen one must bring for the naked STATE OF RIGBA.
(Crystal and wo Light)

I am now more confused - Rigpa is awareness of a state, and a state which the master transmits during DI, according to Crystal and wo Light: Path)
Last edited by Blue Garuda on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:26 pm


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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:30 pm


Sherlock
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Sherlock » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:38 pm

OK this is helpful.

Anyway, my question is whether the state you try to maintain while singing the SoV is called "presence". :thanks:

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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:41 pm

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Andrew108
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Andrew108 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:44 pm

Last edited by Andrew108 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:46 pm

Humm, still don't know what to make of it, but you make some good points.
Still guys, remember that it is only a word. :smile:

edit: read closer what you said and yes, when you recognize instant presence you are instant presence. It's not a movement of the mind. So you are making sense there. Perhaps in the end this is a matter of semantics and I don't find it really important. :lol: Rigpa as solely the recognition or also as the state... as soon as one tastes it, it really doesn't matter.
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:47 pm


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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:58 pm


Blue Garuda
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:03 pm

That's much clearer. Thanks! :)

Oh, my typo - the book did say bring 'forth' so it's not that bad. :)

As you say, a word, just as a Japanese may put a label upon 'Mushin' to describe the indescribable and immeasurable: http://www.budodojo.com/FiveSpiritsOfBudo.htm

There is certainly a state I enter by the end of the White A practice, and perhaps it doesn't need a label. it's actually quite an effort to leave it, and it feels very natural, so that's fine for now. I can't sustain much in the SoV as the words and melody are still unfamiliar. However, I can sustain it when listening to ChNNR chanting it. I don't mind slow progress. LOL :)
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:21 pm

You see, when ChNN gives direct introduction, that means he introduces you to the natural state, the same state he is in (thus Guru Yoga). When one fails to recognize it, one practices and may discover it later.
If you have doubts about it, this is the reason for all those practices we have: for one to make sure that one has actually recognized the natural state and not some mental production, to separate nirvana and samsara, what is mind made and what is beyond mind. From Guru Yoga to the SoV, from the rushens to the semdzins and so on there are many methods available.

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Re: ChNN's terminology

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:37 pm

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