Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:31 pm

thank you for clarifying, Pero.

Buddha Shakyamuni himself has emphasized over and over that nothing he teaches should be believed blindly only because he said it and all of his teachings should be scrutinized and critically examined before accepted.

Why on earth is it that so many people believe that scrutinizing the teachings and doings of people like Michael Roach is itself a form of negative speech? And, btw, the word critisise comes from the greek word krinein which means to distinguish. If you critisise a teacher you examine his teachings (and his role model) and you differentiate the right from the wrong. This is exactly what the Buddha himself teaches us to do and whoever disallows the right and duty to critical examination is not a Buddhist in my eyes.
Last edited by ReasonAndRhyme on Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:34 pm

Yesterday ChNNR was speaking in the context of teaching that a single form of Guru Yoga can encompass and satisfy all the samayas and commitments we have which are related to all of our teachers. Therefore there is no need to 'leave' one Guru, especially harbouring negative thoughts, as we can encompass all our gurus, good and bad, in the one action. He also explained that, for example, the Guru Yoga of Tsongkhapa could be used for this purpose, as well as the practices he teaches himself - that doesn't seem like 'cult' behaviour.

I'm sure he would advise people against harmful teachers as he seems to do so with respect to Dolgyal as a harmful practice which should be stopped and Guru Tragphur practice taken up as an antidote to the harm which may have been caused. He also advises people to be careful who they choose and stop any harmful practices they may have - so surely is advising against following certain Gurus. He has said this on other occasions :

''There are good reincarnations, good teachers, and there are bad. There are also a lot of people doing dharma business. It is better you know that and not follow teachings in a blind way otherwise you can have problems later on.''

''By doing the practice of Guru Dragphur, you won't receive the negative influence of the Gyalpo. But those who have already had a relationship with them should stop this relationship and should do the practice of Guru Dragphur otherwise they will find themselves with many problems later on. ''

So I don't see a conflict between the advice of Greg and that of ChNNR in any fundamental way, more of a concern that people do not leave a cult and harbour anger for years afterwards.

In my experience, it is good advice, as I've rarely encountered anyone who leaves a cult without some anger and resentment.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:01 pm

honestdboy wrote:Do we really need to kick GMR after he has fallen down so low?
Low? He was bragging in the video link about how many thousands of people were attending his lecture tours and how this an indication that everything that he is doing is correct!!!
If we really wish to be helpful, we should suggest ways he can improve his organization, e.g., screening people who want to take 3-year retreats and making it crystal clear that his teachings are a fusion of TB, yoga, Hinduism, new age, etc...
Dude, as long as the $$$'s are flowing in he won't listen to anything. You forget he was a diamond merchant? You know how diamonds end up on engagement rings and high class bling? You know how much the suit he is wearing in the photo costs?
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby honestdboy » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:16 pm

His audience numbers were high before the scandal. I think his numbers will be declining along with the moolah with all this negative publicity. I think he's trying to think of a way out of this mess. His smile seems a little forced in the recent videos I've seen. I think he's smart enough to see he needs to make some big changes.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby TenzinDorje » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:11 pm

I've experienced "bad" teachers in this life. It was all preparation for meeting my sublime Lama. Rather than rail against the injustice and thieves of this world, I now go back to practice..

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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Yangtso » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:11 pm

In the Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, there is a reference in Sutta 50 to Mara Dusi (elsewhere in the Long Discourses referred to as craving) the evil one and a reference that his sister is Kali. The footnote for this section states that there is actually a single Mara and different beings occupy that Mara who have the karma to do so. The Sutta also tells of how the Mara can actually go into others bodies and incites them to do harm and violence to others.

There are some great old texts at the public library here and one was a collection of Hindu and Buddhist stories from an 1800’s English gentleman who traveled to India collecting. There is a story in India that Kali showed up under the Bodhi tree with her skull cup of blood wanting to have sex with the Shakyamuni and he refused her.

Buddha defeated the Mara.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Yangtso » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:22 pm

I’ve met a few Lamas and Rinpoches that don’t live in glass houses and take the practice of the Ten Virtues, Samayas and 84.000 teachings to heart, and I have met some who are honest and transparent about their downfalls. I have read that there are also Buddhas who emanate as 8th bhumi bodhisattvas and act non virtuous as instruction to others.

Buddha tells a story in the Middle Length Discourses about how in the Golden Age the Chakravartin Hindu Kings come first. In the land there are only the 5 refuge laws and the law that the poor are given free land. There is a wheel turning Buddha that arises and then in subsequent generations a king arises that does not consult the elder minister for the laws and does not give property. The poor begin to steal; the king kills for punishment. Then after consulting the minister he begins to give land and then the people start to kill to get free land. The life span at that time is 70,000 years and as each virtue is lost the life span is cut in half.

We are at the advent of the loss of the last virtue, disparaging (a poor and rich spouse speak ill of each other). Buddha defines it in the Sutta as speaking ill of an elder or a religious leader (Brahmin). This is why we are instructed to not just speak ill of others. For when this seats the life span goes from 100 to 10 years because the only grain to eat is kushu grass and then one day those in the city take out knives and kill everyone and those hiding in the county say ‘we will kill no more’ and as each virtue is slowly regained the lifespan doubles until the Golden Age returns and Maitreya turns the wheel.

So I suppose the advice is unless your Buddha eye is open all the time watch your speech as you are only contributing to the mad suffering of countless sentient beings? And I am not saying GMR is a Buddha I am only certain that he is an example to take to heart as to what behavior to discard.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Yangtso » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:35 pm

Last bit: when I read that Sutta about the children without food and killing each other I cried for two weeks. About 20 years ago I was doing genetic engineering. Our lab partner in S. America had done a simple experiment. He put wheat, rice, corn and other food grasses and sugars into a chamber. He began to increase CO2 levels. He extrapolated that in 50 years with the CO2 levels continuing to rise at the rate they were then that all the food grasses and sugars would go extinct. We were working on engineering a ancient harsh climate Photosynthesis pathway into plants. Now the Americans and Europeans have only sent the bad habits to China and Asia.

I lost heart that Science would save the world and began to teach. About 4 years ago I was teaching in an Inner city. The children some of them 10 were in the streets killing each other and I hear from first grade teachers that kids are talking about having sex at the age of 6.

Personally I find a couple of the speech virtues very difficult to practice... but if we continue to try do we not only benefit ourselves but others as well?
So this is delicate? To not warn others would also be problematic? Thus the sublime teachers teach, by words and action virtue and not non virtue.

Buddha said the virtues are the greatest austerity.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby dewa » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:42 pm

Actually, his numbers are higher now, because everybody loves a scandal, and everybody wants to see the scary cult lama.

This discussion is a bit frustrating for me to watch, because it's so clear that the people participating here don't have any personal experience of Geshe Michael, and are just reacting to what they see in the media, or maybe a first impression they had of him from going to one of his teachings. For instance, people talk about him in terms of the prosperity gospel, without understanding that the prosperity gospel he teaches is that if you serve others and make sure that they have what they need, then you will experience prosperity. It almost sounds like a teaching on karma.

And then there's the notion that Geshe Michael's students aren't Buddhists. I wonder who appointed the person who said this the arbiter of what is and is not Buddhist. The first approximation of what it is to be Buddhist is that we say we are Buddhist, because we want to understand and practice what the Buddha taught. I did this in about 1994 after reading Sogyel Rinpoche's book, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. After reading the book, I decided it was time to get real and start acting like the people in my life were impermanent, and so I did so, and it changed a lot of important relationships in my life for the better.

Then later on, a big scandal came out about Sogyel Rinpoche. It was literally painful to read the article in the New York Times describing what he was accused of having done. And I had to ask myself, okay, is all the beautiful teaching that I read by this man on the topic of death and impermanence invalid, because of this accusation that has been made against him? I sat with that for weeks. And ultimately I concluded that no, it was not invalid, because it worked. I put what he taught me into practice, and my life got better, and it got better in ways that were clearly traceable to the teaching that I had put into practice.

Coincidentally, I heard about the scandal while at a teaching His Holiness gave in Central Park, and I was at that teaching because my teacher, Geshe Michael, had recommended that I go. His Holiness had been teaching Master Kamalashila's short book on meditation, and I'd been to all the classes he'd given, and so it seemed natural to go to the teaching in the park. If Geshe Michael is such a cult leader, it's surprising to me that he sent me to go see another teacher. If he's a non-Buddhist, why send me to hear teachings from a Buddhist teacher?

I'll tell you why. Because what I heard His Holiness say sounded a lot like what I heard Geshe Michael say. And when I went to other teachings by His Holiness later, I had the same experience. I've never heard His Holiness say a single thing that disagreed with what Geshe Michael taught me.

Geshe Michael was a very weird experience for me when I first met him, and he continues to be. My initial reaction to him was that he looked funny, and I didn't like the way he talked. I was at the teaching because my girlfriend at the time was a student of his, and had invited me. There were all kinds of things that struck me as weird—the small circle of students who always had to sit close to him, all the pretty girls who seemed to want to be near him. Especially after my experience with Sogyel Rinpoche, I was extremely skeptical about all this.

And yet at the same time, his teachings helped me. Sogyel Rinpoche's teachings in impermanence had given me permission to let go of my anger about things people I love had done, because there simply isn't time to square things up. Either you love the person, or you don't. If they do something you don't appreciate, deal with it then, and then let it go. Don't hold grudges. Don't allow mental afflictions to separate you from those you love. That was what I took away from Sogyel Rinpoche's teachings.

Geshe Michael's teachings built on that. Don't be afraid of being taken advantage of, because that's impossible. Nobody can ever take advantage of you. Don't tell small lies to avoid a truth that you think will have unpleasant consequences when it is revealed, because the small lies _cannot_ prevent the unpleasant consequences. They will come, or not, whether you lie, or not. Seek out opportunities to be kind to perfect strangers. Greet people with an open heart.

Geshe Michael gave me my vows, and my vows have been an important part of my current happiness. Many times in my life I have made choices based on those vows, and the fact of the vows freed me to make the choice that I wanted to make, instead of the choices that I thought were expedient. If I had not met Geshe Michael, and had continued down the road I was on before I met him, I would now be a bitter and unhappy person. Not only has Geshe Michael's teaching enriched my life, but it's enriched the lives of my family members. He taught me how to heal my relationship with my father, which was full of anger and resentment even after Sogyel Rinpoche's teaching—Rinpoche taught me what to do about my own anger, but not how to do it.

Because of my skepticism about Geshe Michael's inner circle, I watched them pretty closely, and I watched his interactions with them. I don't know what kind of interpersonal interactions they have had because those tend to be private, but my experience of the inner circle is that they are there because that's where they want to be. They follow him closely because they want to. He doesn't discourage them from doing so, and he tries to find useful things for them to do, but if I had to characterize their impact on his life, I would say that they are a big hassle for him. He's put quite a lot of effort into creating a private space where his inner circle doesn't go, so that he can have time to himself for his practice, and for the intellectual works that he does (e.g., translations, and preparing for teachings, and writing books).

So when we talk about whether Geshe Michael is, or is not, a Buddhist, I think it's worth looking at what he teaches, not just at what the newspapers report about him. I think it's worth listening to his students. And when we talk about what happened at DM, and whether Geshe Michael could have prevented it, I think it's worth considering two possibilities:

The first is that Geshe Michael is a realized being. If so, then what happened out in the desert was most certainly exactly what he intended to have happen. That is the power that realized beings have. But they also take the long view. So it's hard to say what ultimate goal the events in the desert may have had, but if you accept that he's a realized being, you kind of have to accept that he had some goal in mind.

But I think most people here are maintaining that he is an ordinary schmuck, just like the rest of us. If that's the case, then he didn't intend what happened. He couldn't have anticipated it. He couldn't have prevented it.

From my side, I don't have a strong opinion either way. I see Geshe Michael working tirelessly on my behalf, in his work with ACIP (he still sorts through raw data from ACIP), in his translations, in his teaching schedule. I experience the benefits of his teachings. And I see this endless carping by people who don't know him about his legitimacy as a teacher. I don't need to know whether he's a realized being or not to conclude that I am glad to have met him, and am glad that he is still in my life, and to wish that people would spend some effort following Lama Surya Das' advice on this topic: "Don't spy out the flea in another's hair while overlooking the yak on one's own nose."
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:35 pm

@dewa

Nobody is horrible all the time and not every action that Michael Roach has carried out in his life has been harmful - of course not - far from it. A part of what makes this situation so unfortunate is that Roach had such potential to bring authentic Dharma to the West. Alas, he decided that he was enlightened and when off and started doing his own thing and as a result of this, he created "Lama" Christie McNally and it has ended in tears.

And then there's the notion that Geshe Michael's students aren't Buddhists.


Well if he is doing Kali initiations (made-up Kali initiations at that) then his students are not getting Buddhist teachings. From a Buddhist point of view Kali is a worldly deity and not a source of Buddhist refuge. This is wrong for a Buddhist teacher to do. If you like that sort of thing - go ahead, knock yourself out but it is not Buddhism.

But I think most people here are maintaining that he is an ordinary schmuck, just like the rest of us. If that's the case, then he didn't intend what happened. He couldn't have anticipated it. He couldn't have prevented it.


No. Michael Roach's spiritual pride led in part to what happened to Christie McNally and Ian Thorson. He provided the conditions for this to happen. Had he not decided he was on the 1st Bodhisattva Bhumi and his yoga chick girlfriend was a Lama this would not have happened.

Roach is not a monster. He's an arrogant man who is the star of his own movie. He's not a reliable teacher of Buddhism.

A further piece on this by the guy who first broke the story, Matthew Remski, over at:
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/06/the-michael-roach-bubble/
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby lama tsewang » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:34 am

yes, while it is true , actually , that the tibetan tradition is very confusing . its outer appearance is of a feudal hierarchy, but no one says anything about the misbehaviour of a monk who has been trained at Sera Mey.

I guess for one thuing also, perhaps those in iNDIA , RESPONSIBLE FOR HIM HAVING BEEN GIVEN THE gESHE TITLE, FEEL OUT OF PLACE IN INTERVENING IN EVENTS IN nORTH aMERICA.
{I have very bad typing skills).

The monastic sangha does have punishments that are clear, for monks who misbehave, like him. The Sanghas strongest punishment can be, to not communicate with him and disassociate itself from him , that is the strongest punishment we have. This was applied against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

It actually peeves me that the superiors of the gelugpa lineage dont say anything , when if this occurred in India , it would be very cl;ear that he was doing his silly things all on his own

is this a kind of dual standard , a lack of care about what goes on in the west?


I think that people here who teach dharma , should start to be more self governing, and establish standards , and also associations of teachers that have clear criteria for membership. I have seen this sort of thing in some Zen traditons.


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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:59 am

dewa wrote:Actually, his numbers are higher now, because everybody loves a scandal, and everybody wants to see the scary cult lama.

This discussion is a bit frustrating for me to watch, because it's so clear that the people participating here don't have any personal experience of Geshe Michael, and are just reacting to what they see in the media, or maybe a first impression they had of him from going to one of his teachings. For instance, people talk about him in terms of the prosperity gospel, without understanding that the prosperity gospel he teaches is that if you serve others and make sure that they have what they need, then you will experience prosperity. It almost sounds like a teaching on karma.

Perhaps teaching about true renunciation would be better, instead of encouraging people to pursue mundane concerns.

And then there's the notion that Geshe Michael's students aren't Buddhists. I wonder who appointed the person who said this the arbiter of what is and is not Buddhist. The first approximation of what it is to be Buddhist is that we say we are Buddhist, because we want to understand and practice what the Buddha taught. I did this in about 1994 after reading Sogyel Rinpoche's book, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. After reading the book, I decided it was time to get real and start acting like the people in my life were impermanent, and so I did so, and it changed a lot of important relationships in my life for the better.

I, for one, believe his students are Buddhists or at least want to. Roach, OTOH, is whom I doubt.

Then later on, a big scandal came out about Sogyel Rinpoche. It was literally painful to read the article in the New York Times describing what he was accused of having done. And I had to ask myself, okay, is all the beautiful teaching that I read by this man on the topic of death and impermanence invalid, because of this accusation that has been made against him? I sat with that for weeks. And ultimately I concluded that no, it was not invalid, because it worked. I put what he taught me into practice, and my life got better, and it got better in ways that were clearly traceable to the teaching that I had put into practice.

How this excuses MR is beyond my imagination.

Coincidentally, I heard about the scandal while at a teaching His Holiness gave in Central Park, and I was at that teaching because my teacher, Geshe Michael, had recommended that I go. His Holiness had been teaching Master Kamalashila's short book on meditation, and I'd been to all the classes he'd given, and so it seemed natural to go to the teaching in the park. If Geshe Michael is such a cult leader, it's surprising to me that he sent me to go see another teacher. If he's a non-Buddhist, why send me to hear teachings from a Buddhist teacher?

So, your thesis is that because he sent you to attend a public teaching with HHDL, in thee middle of a crowd, that makes him beyond suspicion. Makes a lot of sense in your mind, I'm sure.

I'll tell you why. Because what I heard His Holiness say sounded a lot like what I heard Geshe Michael say. And when I went to other teachings by His Holiness later, I had the same experience. I've never heard His Holiness say a single thing that disagreed with what Geshe Michael taught me.

You seem to be forgetting all the other things MR says and does that are the opposite of what HH says and does.

Geshe Michael was a very weird experience for me when I first met him, and he continues to be. My initial reaction to him was that he looked funny, and I didn't like the way he talked. I was at the teaching because my girlfriend at the time was a student of his, and had invited me. There were all kinds of things that struck me as weird—the small circle of students who always had to sit close to him, all the pretty girls who seemed to want to be near him. Especially after my experience with Sogyel Rinpoche, I was extremely skeptical about all this.

Well, you should. We all know what happened to Christie.

And yet at the same time, his teachings helped me. Sogyel Rinpoche's teachings in impermanence had given me permission to let go of my anger about things people I love had done, because there simply isn't time to square things up. Either you love the person, or you don't. If they do something you don't appreciate, deal with it then, and then let it go. Don't hold grudges. Don't allow mental afflictions to separate you from those you love. That was what I took away from Sogyel Rinpoche's teachings.

A lot of people from the church of Scientology say that their teachings help them. What are you trying to prove?

Geshe Michael's teachings built on that. Don't be afraid of being taken advantage of, because that's impossible. Nobody can ever take advantage of you.

You really should put your feet on the ground. Tell that to rape victims.

Don't tell small lies to avoid a truth that you think will have unpleasant consequences when it is revealed, because the small lies _cannot_ prevent the unpleasant consequences. They will come, or not, whether you lie, or not. Seek out opportunities to be kind to perfect strangers. Greet people with an open heart.

Agree. Also, telling big lies as claiming to have accomplishments one doesn't have is also very nasty and a serious samaya breach.

Geshe Michael gave me my vows, and my vows have been an important part of my current happiness.

And you are defending it. I'm really sorry for you and hope you can distance yourself from MR while keeping a peaceful heart.

Many times in my life I have made choices based on those vows, and the fact of the vows freed me to make the choice that I wanted to make, instead of the choices that I thought were expedient.

Then MR should look up to you. He wasn't able to keep his vows. He should have disrobed before getting a woman.

If I had not met Geshe Michael, and had continued down the road I was on before I met him, I would now be a bitter and unhappy person. Not only has Geshe Michael's teaching enriched my life, but it's enriched the lives of my family members. He taught me how to heal my relationship with my father, which was full of anger and resentment even after Sogyel Rinpoche's teaching—Rinpoche taught me what to do about my own anger, but not how to do it.

That's your merit, friend, not his. I'm sure he also received many excellent teachings but didn't gave them as good use as you did.

Because of my skepticism about Geshe Michael's inner circle, I watched them pretty closely, and I watched his interactions with them. I don't know what kind of interpersonal interactions they have had because those tend to be private, but my experience of the inner circle is that they are there because that's where they want to be. They follow him closely because they want to. He doesn't discourage them from doing so, and he tries to find useful things for them to do, but if I had to characterize their impact on his life, I would say that they are a big hassle for him. He's put quite a lot of effort into creating a private space where his inner circle doesn't go, so that he can have time to himself for his practice, and for the intellectual works that he does (e.g., translations, and preparing for teachings, and writing books).

Perhaps if he stopped hitting the night clubs he would find more privacy and time to practice.

So when we talk about whether Geshe Michael is, or is not, a Buddhist, I think it's worth looking at what he teaches, not just at what the newspapers report about him. I think it's worth listening to his students. And when we talk about what happened at DM, and whether Geshe Michael could have prevented it, I think it's worth considering two possibilities:

A teacher's conduct is very important. It's crucial when choosing a Guru in Vajrayana. This is a widely known advice given by many great sages.

The first is that Geshe Michael is a realized being. If so, then what happened out in the desert was most certainly exactly what he intended to have happen. That is the power that realized beings have. But they also take the long view. So it's hard to say what ultimate goal the events in the desert may have had, but if you accept that he's a realized being, you kind of have to accept that he had some goal in mind.

That can only be taken as a joke.

But I think most people here are maintaining that he is an ordinary schmuck, just like the rest of us. If that's the case, then he didn't intend what happened. He couldn't have anticipated it. He couldn't have prevented it.

No, that's the point. He is not an ordinary schmuck. He claims to be a Dharma teacher with a significant amount of realization. By leading a group and giving teachings, he assumes a role that bares some heavy responsibilities. By not living up to them, the results are there to be seen.

From my side, I don't have a strong opinion either way. I see Geshe Michael working tirelessly on my behalf, in his work with ACIP (he still sorts through raw data from ACIP), in his translations, in his teaching schedule. I experience the benefits of his teachings. And I see this endless carping by people who don't know him about his legitimacy as a teacher. I don't need to know whether he's a realized being or not to conclude that I am glad to have met him, and am glad that he is still in my life, and to wish that people would spend some effort following Lama Surya Das' advice on this topic: "Don't spy out the flea in another's hair while overlooking the yak on one's own nose."

All I can say is that I feel sorry for your situation. It must be extremely hard to hear the criticism the media is doing to the person you see as a Guru. You have invested so much in that relation, after having suffered a frustration with a teacher before, that this must be very hard for you.
It won't matter much what I or others say because if you, at this point and with all the public information available, haven't already reached the conclusion that somewhere along the road MR took a very wrong turn in the path and may be hurting people, nothing will make you reconsider your opinion.
All I can say is take care of yourself. Someone who probably trusted him more than you ended up dead after holing himself in a cave with MR ex lover.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Challenge23 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:57 pm

dewa wrote:

Geshe Michael's teachings built on that. Don't be afraid of being taken advantage of, because that's impossible. Nobody can ever take advantage of you. Don't tell small lies to avoid a truth that you think will have unpleasant consequences when it is revealed, because the small lies _cannot_ prevent the unpleasant consequences. They will come, or not, whether you lie, or not. Seek out opportunities to be kind to perfect strangers. Greet people with an open heart.



I do have to disagree re; being taken advantage of. I have read of it happening over and over again in my research on dangerous new religious movements. Do you think that those people who were fooled into committing "revolutionary suicide" in Jonestown weren't being taken advantage of? How about the people who followed Marshall Applewhite? Or even the people that get involved with Ponzi schemes?

Now I haven't done the research on Diamond Mountain and Michael Roach but I can say from both personal experience and research that people can be taken advantage of and are taken advantage of every day.
I'm an agnostic in the same sense that Robert Anton Wilson was, except his reaction was laughter. Mine isn't.

I am not a teacher in any tradition, Buddhist or otherwise. Anything that I have posted should not be taken as representing the view of anyone other than my own. And maybe Larry S. Smith of Montgomery, Alabama. But most likely just me.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Sonny » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:01 pm

Everyone wants happiness, no one wants to suffer but clearly in ignorance we run to suffering
like moths to the flame.

Dewa, this human life is precious and rare and over before you know it.
If you see Buddhism as your path to the end of suffering, then you need a teacher that teaches
the Buddha's Dharma.
A person whose teachings and actions are not Buddhist, and not accepted by any genuine Buddhist lineage
anywhere, should set off nothing but alarm bells.

There are many good, authentic, well respected teachers out there, teachers from every single one of the authentic
dharma lineages to pick from.

I hope Michael Roach fans are able to use this opportunity to step back a while, take some time, take a look at the big picture and just really think about things. It is so important, life is short.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby dewa » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:19 pm

Actually, by disobeying Geshe Michael's instructions, Ian and Christie showed that they don't trust Geshe Michael in the sense that you mean.

It breaks my heart to hear that rape is the one exception to the laws of karma. That means that we can never attain enlightenment, or else that even Buddhas experience rape. It means that the only way to avoid rape is to eliminate all the rapists, and suffer the karma of having done so. This is very upsetting news.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:28 pm

Now you lost me... How does any of that relates to what we are speaking? It seems you are starting to miss the plot, dewa...
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:48 pm

Article on and recent interview with Michael Roach(in which he seems to avoid all the questions) over at The Daily Beast:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/10/buddhist-retreat-s-death-saga.html
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Yangtso » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:27 am

This from "Approaching the Great Perfection: Simultaneous and Gradual approaches..." seems appropriate.

Because objects of knowledge are elaborated and do not manifest as substantial things.
It is not possible to estimate the capability of changeable mind streams.
He who discourages others, saying they are not of a lineage that can be of benefit,
Make those with the qualities of scripture and realization lose heart.


This too as this is a prosaic prophesy of degenerate times:

The sign of degeneration of anuyoga
Are the secret teachings of channels, winds and spheres
Being taught in the street by nonsense talkers
Without experience, [wearing] bone ornaments and holding the
khatvam,
Gaining respect through their miracles
and giving initiations to crowds.




pg 183
http://books.google.com/books?id=x0tluw ... rs&f=false

I think if you put these two together you get the Tibetan response of clear and concise... no comment/shunning.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:03 am

Diamond Mountain on Anderson Cooper's 360 Program (CNN)

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/01/t ... hpt=ac_mid
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona

Postby Knotty Veneer » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:24 pm

JKhedrup wrote:Diamond Mountain on Anderson Cooper's 360 Program (CNN)

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/01/t ... hpt=ac_mid


I am surprised that this is still getting sporadic coverage. No doubt due to the promptings of Ian Thorson's mother. It may turn out that she is the one to clip Michael Roach's wings rather than Christie McNally. The latter seems to have disappeaed altogether but I suppose she'll need as long as it takes to deal with this.
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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