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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Some five or six weeks ago I read some things on That Thread that made me react rather badly to a series of thoughts expressed by some members here, mostly Malcolm. I was, without really knowing it at the time, struggling with some last-ditch grasping and clinging, as I am so good at. In that case it was holding on to my last remaining perceptions of "Buddhism" and "Dharma" and what is True, all of which I of course knew and understood without any fault :rolleye:

I was at that stage making some real progress with some important practice issues, again without really understanding what that was all about at the time. I felt that Dzogchen is not The Real Thing (as I understood it, of course), and that some of the views expressed about letting go was quite heretical and damaging. I said as much.

I then unplugged from DW in particular and to a large extent from Dharma practice in general these last month and a half. What bothered me, on a daily basis, was why I felt so unhappy, so lost in my practice if I was so right. Slowly it dawned on me. I was holding on too tightly to something that I thought was ever so precious to me. I was clinging to the symbols of what was, and is, to me the most beautiful thing out there - the Dharma.

But did the Buddha himself not teach us to drop the raft after a while? Was the endgame of "my own precious and pure Dharma" not in any event what Dzogchen was saying? Slowly, in what was a pretty unpleasant experience, the emotion fell away, and with it the insecurity, the clinging, the fuzzy thinking, leaving only the facts.

All of this is of course nothing but the rather unnecessary mistakes of one practitioner, mistakes that most of you seem to have avoided quite easily. I do however believe that I was wrong, and I have not always expressed my views skillfully in this debate. For that I apologize, especially to Malcolm. If I rather had my little off-time and then expressed my views I would have had an easier ride. Again, like so many times before, Malcolm has taught me a huge lesson here, maybe my most difficult but most important one yet.

I do feel that I now see my attachments clearer, and that as a result thereof I have a better chance of letting go of them.

For that, and for showing me again the real power and beauty of Dzogchen, I can only say thank you. :namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:21 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
All of this is of course nothing but the rather unnecessary mistakes of one practitioner, mistakes that most of you seem to have avoided quite easily.

Oh well, who can say what is necessary and what is unnecessary. In any case, if you learned something about yourself, good for you. :smile:

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Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:33 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
I do feel that I now see my attachments clearer, and that as a result thereof I have a better chance of letting go of them.

For that, and for showing me again the real power and beauty of Dzogchen, I can only say thank you. :namaste:


:bow:

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Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 pm 
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:thumbsup:
Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:10 pm 
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You remind me this sutta in Theravada tradition, Buddha said we have to let go even GOOD teaching.

Quote:
"In the same way, monks, have I shown to you the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to.

14. "You, O monks, who understand the Teaching's similitude to a raft, you should let go even (good) teachings, how much more false ones!

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

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I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:19 pm 
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mindyourmind wrote:
Some five or six weeks ago I read some things on That Thread that made me react rather badly to a series of thoughts expressed by some members here, mostly Malcolm. I was, without really knowing it at the time, struggling with some last-ditch grasping and clinging, as I am so good at. In that case it was holding on to my last remaining perceptions of "Buddhism" and "Dharma" and what is True, all of which I of course knew and understood without any fault :rolleye:

I was at that stage making some real progress with some important practice issues, again without really understanding what that was all about at the time. I felt that Dzogchen is not The Real Thing (as I understood it, of course), and that some of the views expressed about letting go was quite heretical and damaging. I said as much.

I then unplugged from DW in particular and to a large extent from Dharma practice in general these last month and a half. What bothered me, on a daily basis, was why I felt so unhappy, so lost in my practice if I was so right. Slowly it dawned on me. I was holding on too tightly to something that I thought was ever so precious to me. I was clinging to the symbols of what was, and is, to me the most beautiful thing out there - the Dharma.

But did the Buddha himself not teach us to drop the raft after a while? Was the endgame of "my own precious and pure Dharma" not in any event what Dzogchen was saying? Slowly, in what was a pretty unpleasant experience, the emotion fell away, and with it the insecurity, the clinging, the fuzzy thinking, leaving only the facts.

All of this is of course nothing but the rather unnecessary mistakes of one practitioner, mistakes that most of you seem to have avoided quite easily. I do however believe that I was wrong, and I have not always expressed my views skillfully in this debate. For that I apologize, especially to Malcolm. If I rather had my little off-time and then expressed my views I would have had an easier ride. Again, like so many times before, Malcolm has taught me a huge lesson here, maybe my most difficult but most important one yet.

I do feel that I now see my attachments clearer, and that as a result thereof I have a better chance of letting go of them.

For that, and for showing me again the real power and beauty of Dzogchen, I can only say thank you. :namaste:

Many people here speculated if for Dzogchen now Buddhism/Bon is not necessary or is yet. I think it was not so useful. Better to follow one's own master in order to see how Dzogchen really is, especially after Direct Introduction from Him/Her.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Mariusz wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:
Some five or six weeks ago I read some things on That Thread that made me react rather badly to a series of thoughts expressed by some members here, mostly Malcolm. I was, without really knowing it at the time, struggling with some last-ditch grasping and clinging, as I am so good at. In that case it was holding on to my last remaining perceptions of "Buddhism" and "Dharma" and what is True, all of which I of course knew and understood without any fault :rolleye:

I was at that stage making some real progress with some important practice issues, again without really understanding what that was all about at the time. I felt that Dzogchen is not The Real Thing (as I understood it, of course), and that some of the views expressed about letting go was quite heretical and damaging. I said as much.

I then unplugged from DW in particular and to a large extent from Dharma practice in general these last month and a half. What bothered me, on a daily basis, was why I felt so unhappy, so lost in my practice if I was so right. Slowly it dawned on me. I was holding on too tightly to something that I thought was ever so precious to me. I was clinging to the symbols of what was, and is, to me the most beautiful thing out there - the Dharma.

But did the Buddha himself not teach us to drop the raft after a while? Was the endgame of "my own precious and pure Dharma" not in any event what Dzogchen was saying? Slowly, in what was a pretty unpleasant experience, the emotion fell away, and with it the insecurity, the clinging, the fuzzy thinking, leaving only the facts.

All of this is of course nothing but the rather unnecessary mistakes of one practitioner, mistakes that most of you seem to have avoided quite easily. I do however believe that I was wrong, and I have not always expressed my views skillfully in this debate. For that I apologize, especially to Malcolm. If I rather had my little off-time and then expressed my views I would have had an easier ride. Again, like so many times before, Malcolm has taught me a huge lesson here, maybe my most difficult but most important one yet.

I do feel that I now see my attachments clearer, and that as a result thereof I have a better chance of letting go of them.

For that, and for showing me again the real power and beauty of Dzogchen, I can only say thank you. :namaste:

Many people here speculated if for Dzogchen now Buddhism/Bon is not necessary or is yet. I think it was not so useful. Better to follow one's own master in order to see how Dzogchen really is, especially after Direct Introduction from Him/Her.





Tashi delek,

The time before the Direct Introduction is also a certain important time.
Sure it is a personal freedom to get in touch with that Dzogchen Master who is in agreement with ones personal opinions.

To get in touch with a Dzogchen Master(s) is a case of investigations before one can make that choice.

Usefull was it anyway to have had this discussion about Buddhism and Dzogchen etc., because here one could clearly see some different approaches certain Dzogchen Masters have.

Direct Introduction is nice but the time after, that is more important namely to get fixed in the saddle.


Mutsog Marro
KY

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:45 pm 
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I've learned one thing in life: relationship IS the art of letting go.

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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Ogyen wrote:
I've learned one thing in life: relationship IS the art of letting go.


:good:

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Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:37 am 
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Indeed. :thumbsup:


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