Amen. I couldn't have said it better if I tried.deepbluehum wrote:We are not limited to the traditional Buddhist dogmas, and it is not "buddha-dharma" to adhere dogmatically to buddhist cannons and treatises. It is our duty to reevaluate constantly. If it is a living tradition we will do that. Anything living must change. We should try to expose flaws in our predecessors' reasoning. This is not about being arrogant and wanting to start a new school. It's only about being a responsible person, keeping both feet on the ground and genuinely working with the subject matter.
Questioning Alayavijnana
- dharmagoat
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Candrakirti has no interest in representing the yogacara theory from the point of view of Yogacarins. He is only interested in negating it.deepbluehum wrote:So what you are saying is you don't agree with Candrakirti. You haven't shown "it isn't."Malcolm wrote:But it isn't, except in Candrakirti's scheme of things.deepbluehum wrote:But if you take the alayavijnana to be emptiness...
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
No, the model is actually there to explain, among other things, why it is that when someone experiences nirodha samapatti, their mind can resume functioning.deepbluehum wrote:
Obviously. If you really are going to hold this as a view, then there is no reason even to use something like an 8 Consciousness model. The model is there to represent what happens when you don't know all consciousnesses are empty.
M
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Different terminology elaborated at different times, for different purposes, for different reasons. There is no need to try and sew it all up in a nice neat package.deepbluehum wrote:
The discrepancies between Mahayana, Vajrayana, Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Mahayana you have Yogacara and 8 consciousness. Vajrayana goes along with that somewhat but Kagyu Mahamudra makes this distinction with Alaya as pure. Then, Dzogchen says Alaya is ignorance and posits the Gzhi.
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. ó 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' ó Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
And, the flip side, how a formless god can resume a physical form after taking rebirth in a form realm.Malcolm wrote:No, the model is actually there to explain, among other things, why it is that when someone experiences nirodha samapatti, their mind can resume functioning.deepbluehum wrote:
Obviously. If you really are going to hold this as a view, then there is no reason even to use something like an 8 Consciousness model. The model is there to represent what happens when you don't know all consciousnesses are empty.
M
From form and no mind to form and mind; and from no form and mind to form and mind.
All connected through the basic notion of dharmas arising from a continuous series of same type.
~~ Huifeng
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Well, I'd suggest that at some point practice becomes radically simple and these apparent discrepancies lose momentum and fall away.deepbluehum wrote:The discrepancies between Mahayana, Vajrayana, Mahamudra and Dzogchen.Jnana wrote:BTW, why do you want to redefine the ālayavijñāna to be equivalent to nirvāṇa? What do you hope for this hermeneutic maneuver to solve or reconcile?
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
"To have a strong Pluto placement is to be misunderstood." -- KevinMalcolm wrote:To be great is to be misunderstood."
--- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Okay. Among other things.Malcolm wrote:No, the model is actually there to explain, among other things, why it is that when someone experiences nirodha samapatti, their mind can resume functioning.deepbluehum wrote:
Obviously. If you really are going to hold this as a view, then there is no reason even to use something like an 8 Consciousness model. The model is there to represent what happens when you don't know all consciousnesses are empty.
M
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Very cute and poetic. Can't do much with it. The Buddha boiled it down to 12-links. We are essentially dealing with a problem/solution dynamic. Pragmatism is the best course. To take a pragmatic approach one needs heuristics otherwise no one can solve the problem. For example, to catch a baseball "keep your eye on the ball."Malcolm wrote:Different terminology elaborated at different times, for different purposes, for different reasons. There is no need to try and sew it all up in a nice neat package.deepbluehum wrote:
The discrepancies between Mahayana, Vajrayana, Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Mahayana you have Yogacara and 8 consciousness. Vajrayana goes along with that somewhat but Kagyu Mahamudra makes this distinction with Alaya as pure. Then, Dzogchen says Alaya is ignorance and posits the Gzhi.
--- Ralph Waldo Emerson
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. ó 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' ó Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Yes. That is the practice side. I thought we were talking about the explanatory side.Jnana wrote:Well, I'd suggest that at some point practice becomes radically simple and these apparent discrepancies lose momentum and fall away.
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
The twelve links can be further reduced to three, as Nagarjuna puts it --> affliction --> action --> suffering --> affliction -->.deepbluehum wrote: Very cute and poetic. Can't do much with it. The Buddha boiled it down to 12-links.
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
The basic point is that different explanations were elaborated at different times, for different purposes.deepbluehum wrote:Yes. That is the practice side. I thought we were talking about the explanatory side.Jnana wrote:Well, I'd suggest that at some point practice becomes radically simple and these apparent discrepancies lose momentum and fall away.
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
This time we have new needs.Malcolm wrote:The basic point is that different explanations were elaborated at different times, for different purposes.deepbluehum wrote:Yes. That is the practice side. I thought we were talking about the explanatory side.Jnana wrote:Well, I'd suggest that at some point practice becomes radically simple and these apparent discrepancies lose momentum and fall away.
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
Makng Milanese stew however is not the solution.deepbluehum wrote:
This time we have new needs.
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
The question is whether these three are sufficient to carry out the task of "nibbana-ing" afflictions or whether the 12-links are necessary. To be precise, the 12-links are the heuristic that short circuits the problem. 8-consciousness and for Buddha the skandhas and 5-sense consciousness are a models of experience that one recognizes in the process. It seems these two models reinforce one another.Malcolm wrote:The twelve links can be further reduced to three, as Nagarjuna puts it --> affliction --> action --> suffering --> affliction -->.deepbluehum wrote: Very cute and poetic. Can't do much with it. The Buddha boiled it down to 12-links.
As to the OP's issue, in Lankavatara Sutra, the Alaya-vijnana (aka Alaya) is equated with the dharmakaya.
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
That's what happens when you take really divergent systems and try to combine them, like Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism.Malcolm wrote:Makng Milanese stew however is not the solution.deepbluehum wrote:
This time we have new needs.
What I'm making is more of a reduction.
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
It won't work. The terms of these different tenet systems are incommensurate. Of course you can have critical reevaluations of them, such as Candrakirti's revaluation of the term ālayavijñāna as "consciousness apprehending the basis i.e. emptiness, but it does not mean there is a unified field theory that ties all these tenet systems together. Realism includes all tenet systems up the the level of Madhyamaka. Even Madhyamaka subscribes to a qualified realism through its teaching of the two truths. Mahamudra does not really go beyond Madhyamaka in this respect.deepbluehum wrote:That's what happens when you take really divergent systems and try to combine them, like Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism.Malcolm wrote:Makng Milanese stew however is not the solution.deepbluehum wrote:
This time we have new needs.
What I'm making is more of a reduction.
The use of the eight consciousnesses in Vajrayāna systems is related to the eight channel spokes of the heart cakra, etc.
M
-
- Posts: 4209
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
- Location: California
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
There may not be a tenet unified field theory, but there is a way to harmonize all tenets of any Dharma path.
Every mind has its tendencies from many lives, and these minds are unique. Some are more similar to each other, but still unique. So Buddha used skillful means to present paths that fit the many differing minds. Within the buddhadharma all paths lead in the same direction of Buddhahood. All may not reach it, but some minds do not care to reach Buddhahood.
Every mind has its tendencies from many lives, and these minds are unique. Some are more similar to each other, but still unique. So Buddha used skillful means to present paths that fit the many differing minds. Within the buddhadharma all paths lead in the same direction of Buddhahood. All may not reach it, but some minds do not care to reach Buddhahood.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
-
- Posts: 1302
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
- Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Questioning Alayavijnana
I don't understand how realism enters into this discussion.Malcolm wrote:Realism includes all tenet systems up the the level of Madhyamaka. Even Madhyamaka subscribes to a qualified realism through its teaching of the two truths. Mahamudra does not really go beyond Madhyamaka in this respect.
I have often felt intuitively that tantra's obsession with numerical correspondences was rather arbitrary.The use of the eight consciousnesses in Vajrayāna systems is related to the eight channel spokes of the heart cakra, etc.