Some practice-related questions

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Some practice-related questions

Postby Sherlock » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:23 pm

OK I'm reposting some of my practice-relate questions here as they seem to get lost/ignored within the main Dzogchen Community thread and as recommended by Andrew108. At least here I'll know if people are ignoring me or the posts are just getting swallowed up :tongue: . I hope this is OK with the mods.

Someone posted about vajra sister who is a neuroscientist doing some scans of the brain while practising meditation in the Dzogchen way which showed a reduction in activity of the prefrontal cortex and als9 quoted some texts saying the f3eling is like lifting a hat off your head. I often feel like this during practice and afterwards, is this what ChNN calls "presence"? Vidya/instant presence I think I feel only in some momentary flashes while doing guruyoga.

Is the melody for Vajrapani similar to any of the other melodies? Since there doesn't seem to be a recording of it available -- just Rinpoche pronouncing it out loud.

Has anyone had any experiences of really learning something in a dream of clarity? Rinpoche is Rinpoche but any of us unrealized practitioners received any teachings in dreams? Can you PM me about this if you don't feel like posting this in public?

Thanks
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:17 pm

the main DC thead is very fast-moving at times and soetimes I've asked a quesiton, blikned and a dozen or more posts have taken the thread in another direction.

Mostly, I've been lucky and very grateful.

This thread is a good idea.

If you get answers, could you put them on the FAQ thread?

In answer to one of your questions I think I have received images and guidance - lucid, but not as 'sitting at the feet of the Master' and receiving practices etc.

For example, I was 'taught' that Garuda was to become a huge influence in my direction and path but had no idea how. Initially Garuda was protective at a time when certain spirit vexatiions were around - repeated appearances and actions in waking and sleeping states really created a feeling of non-duality between myself and Garuda in that there seemed to be no divide, no 'other' in the experiences.

At other times I have had what seemed closer to teachings from a Lama, for example he advised me to seek out 'my' melong - there was also the smell of juniper incense. He looked like a cross between Lama Dawa and Lama Khemsar (Bonpo). I went looking in Glastonbury etc. and found nothing but literally fell over 'my' melong in a market stall in Bath, of all places. Again, perhaps a teaching, but I've never had one which was a conversation, only one-way brief guidance. The imagery in the dreams was very clear, but I explored nothing intellectually, just followed the clues, as it were, and went with the flow. Frankly, I wasn't that keen on finding a Master, so let go of the idea. Events took me to Dzogchen Rinpoche and then to ChNN, so I can affirm that it was pretty darn good advice. :)

I have also had the 'reverse' effect, if you like. Returning from self-generation as Vajrayogini and finding 'this' daily reality to be dream-like, to the extent of wondering if my body, the roads and traffic were real. It only happened once, thankfully, and I'm damn sure I wasn't 'present' in those moments.

The Garuda remains as a key power in my life, so I embrace that and have built a website as a sort of offering and encouragement to others to engage with this deity. :)
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby alpha » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:37 pm

[/quote]

Has anyone had any experiences of really learning something in a dream of clarity? Rinpoche is Rinpoche but any of us unrealized practitioners received any teachings in dreams? Can you PM me about this if you don't feel like posting this in public?

Thanks[/quote]

Im very new to DC but my experience in this regard its been very rich and extraordinary
I think this happen to quite a few people though.
Its not that uncommon.
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Sherlock » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:49 pm

alpha wrote:

Has anyone had any experiences of really learning something in a dream of clarity? Rinpoche is Rinpoche but any of us unrealized practitioners received any teachings in dreams? Can you PM me about this if you don't feel like posting this in public?

Thanks


Im very new to DC but my experience in this regard its been very rich and extraordinary
I think this happen to quite a few people though.
Its not that uncommon.


Receiving teachings or advice in a precise way I don't think is that common. Seeing the Guru in your dreams is common, but can just be a karmic dream.
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Virgo » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:12 pm

Sherlock wrote: Receiving teachings or advice in a precise way I don't think is that common. Seeing the Guru in your dreams is common, but can just be a karmic dream.

There is an EXCELLENT book by Rinpoche called Dream Yoga, and in it he explains many things related to night time practice and the practice of dreams. He explains clearly in it how to know if a dream is a karmic dream or a dream of clarity.

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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Sherlock » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:19 pm

Funnily enough, I just saw that book in a bookshop today and was browsing through it. I didn't have the cash to buy it at the moment though. It seems to actually contain much more information on dream practice than the little Milam booklet or restricted Cycle of Day and Night book.
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Virgo » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:24 pm

Sherlock wrote:Funnily enough, I just saw that book in a bookshop today and was browsing through it. I didn't have the cash to buy it at the moment though. It seems to actually contain much more information on dream practice than the little Milam booklet or restricted Cycle of Day and Night book.

It's a great book.

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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:24 pm

Blue Garuda wrote:the main DC thead is very fast-moving at times and soetimes I've asked a quesiton, blikned and a dozen or more posts have taken the thread in another direction.

Mostly, I've been lucky and very grateful.

This thread is a good idea.

If you get answers, could you put them on the FAQ thread?

In answer to one of your questions I think I have received images and guidance - lucid, but not as 'sitting at the feet of the Master' and receiving practices etc.

For example, I was 'taught' that Garuda was to become a huge influence in my direction and path but had no idea how. Initially Garuda was protective at a time when certain spirit vexatiions were around - repeated appearances and actions in waking and sleeping states really created a feeling of non-duality between myself and Garuda in that there seemed to be no divide, no 'other' in the experiences.

At other times I have had what seemed closer to teachings from a Lama, for example he advised me to seek out 'my' melong - there was also the smell of juniper incense. He looked like a cross between Lama Dawa and Lama Khemsar (Bonpo). I went looking in Glastonbury etc. and found nothing but literally fell over 'my' melong in a market stall in Bath, of all places. Again, perhaps a teaching, but I've never had one which was a conversation, only one-way brief guidance. The imagery in the dreams was very clear, but I explored nothing intellectually, just followed the clues, as it were, and went with the flow. Frankly, I wasn't that keen on finding a Master, so let go of the idea. Events took me to Dzogchen Rinpoche and then to ChNN, so I can affirm that it was pretty darn good advice. :)

I have also had the 'reverse' effect, if you like. Returning from self-generation as Vajrayogini and finding 'this' daily reality to be dream-like, to the extent of wondering if my body, the roads and traffic were real. It only happened once, thankfully, and I'm damn sure I wasn't 'present' in those moments.

The Garuda remains as a key power in my life, so I embrace that and have built a website as a sort of offering and encouragement to others to engage with this deity. :)


I have just noticed this and wanted to say that I found "my " melong ( or it found me ) in similar circumstances but 30 miles north of Bath, in Cirencester...
There must be something about West Country air.

:namaste:
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:36 am

We think of practice because we are still in a student/teacher relationship. We check results, look for signs, and hope for progress. Listen! At some point we have to give up the notion 'teacher'. We give up the notion 'student'. We give up the idea of a path and we give up the idea of practice.
If you idolize your teacher then you think of Dzogchen as an achievement and you will feel it necessary to check your progress. If this is the case then you move far away from Dzogchen. If you follow what your teacher says then you are being inspired by words and not the natural state itself. There is no samaya in Dzogchen. No keeper or kept.
Imagine you have understood your true nature, then this is inspiration as it should be and you know there is no practice to do. Whatever practices your teacher gives won't change how things are. Give up the false devotion that so many on this board show towards their teacher. Is that scary? Dzogchen masters have one function only and that is to give direct introduction. After that its just words and conceptual elaboration, false paths and levels.
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:06 am

Andrew108 wrote:We think of practice because we are still in a student/teacher relationship. We check results, look for signs, and hope for progress. Listen! At some point we have to give up the notion 'teacher'. We give up the notion 'student'. We give up the idea of a path and we give up the idea of practice.
If you idolize your teacher then you think of Dzogchen as an achievement and you will feel it necessary to check your progress. If this is the case then you move far away from Dzogchen. If you follow what your teacher says then you are being inspired by words and not the natural state itself. There is no samaya in Dzogchen. No keeper or kept.
Imagine you have understood your true nature, then this is inspiration as it should be and you know there is no practice to do. Whatever practices your teacher gives won't change how things are. Give up the false devotion that so many on this board show towards their teacher. Is that scary? Dzogchen masters have one function only and that is to give direct introduction. After that its just words and conceptual elaboration, false paths and levels.


That sounds like a counsel of perfection, 'at some point', which is fair enough. Most of us still need the Guru after he has given DI, to introduce us to methods of working with it, such as the 'A' practices and Song of the Vajra in the case of the DC. Idolising is a different matter.

In the case of dreaming, I come at it from the Vajrayogini Yoga of Sleep, where again we remain in our state into sleeping and dreaming. There is of course a major difference in that as Vajrayogini we are still within a mandala of sensations as the mantra etc., but I found it helpful to have done that practice.
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby heart » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:20 am

Andrew108 wrote:We think of practice because we are still in a student/teacher relationship. We check results, look for signs, and hope for progress. Listen! At some point we have to give up the notion 'teacher'. We give up the notion 'student'. We give up the idea of a path and we give up the idea of practice.
If you idolize your teacher then you think of Dzogchen as an achievement and you will feel it necessary to check your progress. If this is the case then you move far away from Dzogchen. If you follow what your teacher says then you are being inspired by words and not the natural state itself. There is no samaya in Dzogchen. No keeper or kept.
Imagine you have understood your true nature, then this is inspiration as it should be and you know there is no practice to do. Whatever practices your teacher gives won't change how things are. Give up the false devotion that so many on this board show towards their teacher. Is that scary? Dzogchen masters have one function only and that is to give direct introduction. After that its just words and conceptual elaboration, false paths and levels.


I think Van Morrison wrote that song you are singing Andrew108:

"No guru, no method, no teacher
Just you and i and nature
And the father and the
Son and the holy ghost
In the garden wet with rain"

In the Garden, Van Morrison

Seriously, direct introduction is paramount but it have to lead to actually recognizing your own nature. This can take time and the Guru and his teachings are indispensable for this to happen. After that you have to decide on one thing and gain confidence in self-liberation. Without a Guru this is very difficult. Our condition is delusion and if you actually watch your own mind this will become evident. Of course everyone is different and I don't know you, you might have gained realization. Realization means that your condition is not delusion, someone hits you - you don't become angry, someone praises you - you don't become pleased. Someone steal your girlfriend, burn down your house take away all your clothes and beat you up - you hold no grudge. If you are sleeping or awake, sick or healthy, young or old, dead or alive it just doesn't matter. You can walk right up to your Guru and say: "Thank you, I gained realization and I am now equal to Samanthabadhra" without blushing. The question you have to ask yourself Andrew108 is; if they don't need a Guru's advice, why would they need your advice?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Pero » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:44 am

Andrew108 wrote:There is no samaya in Dzogchen. No keeper or kept.

Only if you're really in a state of contemplation.

Dzogchen masters have one function only and that is to give direct introduction. After that its just words and conceptual elaboration, false paths and levels.

If you really think that then you haven't understood anything.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby alpha » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:10 am

Andrew108 wrote:We think of practice because we are still in a student/teacher relationship. We check results, look for signs, and hope for progress. Listen! At some point we have to give up the notion 'teacher'. We give up the notion 'student'. We give up the idea of a path and we give up the idea of practice.
If you idolize your teacher then you think of Dzogchen as an achievement and you will feel it necessary to check your progress. If this is the case then you move far away from Dzogchen. If you follow what your teacher says then you are being inspired by words and not the natural state itself. There is no samaya in Dzogchen. No keeper or kept.
Imagine you have understood your true nature, then this is inspiration as it should be and you know there is no practice to do. Whatever practices your teacher gives won't change how things are. Give up the false devotion that so many on this board show towards their teacher. Is that scary? Dzogchen masters have one function only and that is to give direct introduction. After that its just words and conceptual elaboration, false paths and levels.



is jax still here? :shrug:
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:15 am

alpha wrote:

is jax still here? :shrug:


Shhhh. If you write it twice more, like Beetlejuice, he will apear! ;)
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Stewart » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:37 am

Andrew,

Some of the stuff you have been hitting out with recently has really damaged the credibility of your posts, IMO. The whole tone and content has taken a massive shift into the realms of BS.

Please sort it out.

Best wishes,

s.

ps. and please don't reply to me with some pseudo-dzogchen babble, it's worn thin.
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby heart » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:43 am

Sherlock wrote:Someone posted about vajra sister who is a neuroscientist doing some scans of the brain while practising meditation in the Dzogchen way which showed a reduction in activity of the prefrontal cortex and als9 quoted some texts saying the f3eling is like lifting a hat off your head. I often feel like this during practice and afterwards, is this what ChNN calls "presence"? Vidya/instant presence I think I feel only in some momentary flashes while doing guruyoga.


Ask Rinpoche, this a very important question so you should resolve that with your Guru.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby zangskar » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:48 am

Sherlock wrote:Someone posted about vajra sister who is a neuroscientist doing some scans of the brain while practising meditation in the Dzogchen way which showed a reduction in activity of the prefrontal cortex and als9 quoted some texts saying the f3eling is like lifting a hat off your head. I often feel like this during practice and afterwards, is this what ChNN calls "presence"? Vidya/instant presence I think I feel only in some momentary flashes while doing guruyoga.

I think this is the thread: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8536&start=0#p104292
Maybe this discussion is also relevant:http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5347
Best wishes
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:04 pm

There are lots of quotes from masters living and dead that talk about the guru/student relationship being an obstacle when taken on conventionally. I could even quote from the precious and sublime Kunjed Gyalpo that says the same thing and more. But I don't want to point score or prove a point.
I'm posting this because I'm responding to Sherlocks original post. Questions about practice and Dzogchen only come about when the teacher/student relationship is viewed conventionally. I don't like to say ''well ChNN said this so it must be true'' or ''you must be wrong because ChNN said this''. This is an example of taking the relationship to a conventional level and demeaning it. This isn't Dzogchen - this is like a prison situation.
Dzogchen is all about inspiration not specific practices or their results. How it is that we are inspired by Dzogchen - laugh out loud crazy inspired . We work with the consequences of that inspiration. Seeing a gap in the sky where our teacher used to be. Where we used to be.
You don't have to worry about whether or not I am a teacher - you can clearly see that I am not and I have no ambition in that regard. My advice is just a simple result of confidence. If it fits with how you see things then great - if not then that's fine too. But please don't demean the student/teacher relationship by turning it into something conventional. That way you will never stop fantasies about practice and results.
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:42 pm

Sherlock wrote:OK I'm reposting some of my practice-relate questions here as they seem to get lost/ignored within the main Dzogchen Community thread and as recommended by Andrew108. At least here I'll know if people are ignoring me or the posts are just getting swallowed up :tongue: . I hope this is OK with the mods.

Someone posted about vajra sister who is a neuroscientist doing some scans of the brain while practising meditation in the Dzogchen way which showed a reduction in activity of the prefrontal cortex and als9 quoted some texts saying the f3eling is like lifting a hat off your head. I often feel like this during practice and afterwards, is this what ChNN calls "presence"? Vidya/instant presence I think I feel only in some momentary flashes while doing guruyoga.

You can always contact ChNN, but most of all keep in mind that there are very good practices to make the difference between mind- and all mental production - and nature of mind. So, if in doubt, you do these practices to get rid of it (Garab Dorje second statment). If I were you, I'd try to check it myself with some adittional practice. If doubt persists, then you can always see what ChNN says about it.

Is the melody for Vajrapani similar to any of the other melodies? Since there doesn't seem to be a recording of it available -- just Rinpoche pronouncing it out loud.

http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=304
Perhaps this helps.

Has anyone had any experiences of really learning something in a dream of clarity? Rinpoche is Rinpoche but any of us unrealized practitioners received any teachings in dreams? Can you PM me about this if you don't feel like posting this in public?

This is possible, but it's not likely to happen until someone has some attainment. If someone has clarity dreams very often, can relate these dreams, is used to practice while sleeping and so on, perhaps. But it's not very common. Personal insights related to one's practice during one's clarity dreams are more common, as your clarity manifests. This is very useful. But teachings, in the sense of teachings that could be useful to all, are much more rare and perhaps someone needs to have some accomplishment first.

So this is what I make of it. Let's hope it helps you. :smile:
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Re: Some practice-related questions

Postby heart » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:02 pm

Andrew108 wrote:There are lots of quotes from masters living and dead that talk about the guru/student relationship being an obstacle when taken on conventionally. I could even quote from the precious and sublime Kunjed Gyalpo that says the same thing and more. But I don't want to point score or prove a point.


Come on Andrew108, give us the quotes.

I'm posting this because I'm responding to Sherlocks original post. Questions about practice and Dzogchen only come about when the teacher/student relationship is viewed conventionally. I don't like to say ''well ChNN said this so it must be true'' or ''you must be wrong because ChNN said this''. This is an example of taking the relationship to a conventional level and demeaning it. This isn't Dzogchen - this is like a prison situation.


Are you sure you understand the meaning of the word "conventional"? Discussions on a internet forum are certainly very conventional, they are hardly to be considered a Dzogchen Tantra, right?

Dzogchen is all about inspiration not specific practices or their results. How it is that we are inspired by Dzogchen - laugh out loud crazy inspired . We work with the consequences of that inspiration. Seeing a gap in the sky where our teacher used to be. Where we used to be.
You don't have to worry about whether or not I am a teacher - you can clearly see that I am not and I have no ambition in that regard. My advice is just a simple result of confidence. If it fits with how you see things then great - if not then that's fine too. But please don't demean the student/teacher relationship by turning it into something conventional. That way you will never stop fantasies about practice and results.


I fail to see where the OP is "demeaning the student/teacher relationship by turning it in to something conventional"? Could you perhaps quote from his post? Or are you responding to some other post that you failed to quote?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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