Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby CapNCrunch » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:52 pm

Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path


I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen. Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
It is called Vajrayana. "Dzogchen is a part of Vajrayana" ChNNR

Edit: I understand that this is a also a name for the Lamdre teachings (after some google) I of course don't mean that Dzogchen is a part of Lamdre.

/magnus


One does not take the path as the result in Dzogchen. For example, Vajrayāna is nominally part of Mahāyāna, nevertheless, Vajrayāna is not a causal vehicle. Vajrayāna in general is the result vehicle. Likewise, Dzogchen is nominally part of the both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna but it is the vehicle beyond cause and result.

Hence my negation of your statement.


Ok, I will not argue with that. The point I was trying to make to Andrew108 was that there definitely is a path and also a fruition in Dzogchen even if it is beyond cause and result.

/magnus
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:05 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path


I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen. Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.


Yes, that was what I was trying to say.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:18 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path


I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen. Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.



No, to take the result as the path means, for example, to meditate on oneself as a buddha, for example, Guru Dragphur, which is the method of Upa, Yoga, Mahayoga and Anuyoga.

One is not a buddha, but one takes the result as one's path.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby CapNCrunch » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:25 pm

Thanks for clarifying - I wondered if the term had some special semantic field and meaning - which is why it's so hard for me to understand anything not understanding Tibetan and the terms specific to each vehicle.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Andrew108 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:38 pm

heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
heart wrote:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path. There is certainly a path, both in Trechö and Tögal but as the view, the natural state, can't improve or change in any way Dzogchen is often referred to as a non-gradual path. The view is non-gradual but there is certainly a path getting used to that view, resting longer and longer in the natural state. In Tögal there is the four visions, which is the path how the visions develop under normal circumstances. This is happening by getting used to and fully realizing. or integrating, inseparable kadag and lhundrup.

/magnus

Hi Magnus,
It's really not like this. If you want I could explain more.


What are your qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher? :smile: I didn't make this up you know.

/magnus

Hi Magnus,
Yes you are right and I don't have any qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher. It's better to follow what you know.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
CapNCrunch wrote:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path


I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen. Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.



No, to take the result as the path means, for example, to meditate on oneself as a buddha, for example, Guru Dragphur, which is the method of Upa, Yoga, Mahayoga and Anuyoga.

One is not a buddha, but one takes the result as one's path.

M


That is not how my Guru explains it, he says that taking the result as the path means to take the natural state as the path since there is no other Buddha.

/magnus
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:05 pm

heart wrote:
That is not how my Guru explains it, he says that taking the result as the path means to take the natural state as the path since there is no other Buddha.

/magnus


Yidam is a symbol of natural state.

In general, however this language belongs to the vehicles of cause and result.There are specific passages in Dzogchen tantras which reject this language.

Taking the three kāyas into the path is different than taking the result as the path.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
That is not how my Guru explains it, he says that taking the result as the path means to take the natural state as the path since there is no other Buddha.

/magnus


Yidam is a symbol of natural state.

In general, however this language belongs to the vehicles of cause and result.There are specific passages in Dzogchen tantras which reject this language.

Taking the three kāyas into the path is different than taking the result as the path.


I will not argue with you, anyway I don't see the point since everything depends on you recognizing the natural state or not.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby heart » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:25 am

Andrew108 wrote:Hi Magnus,
Yes you are right and I don't have any qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher. It's better to follow what you know.


Hi Andrew108,

As long as we have an open discussion I don't mind hearing your opinions. If you listened to ChNNR webcast yesterday he made exactly the same point as I did above, to the best of my understanding.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:13 am

heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:Hi Magnus,
Yes you are right and I don't have any qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher. It's better to follow what you know.


Hi Andrew108,

As long as we have an open discussion I don't mind hearing your opinions. If you listened to ChNNR webcast yesterday he made exactly the same point as I did above, to the best of my understanding.

/magnus

Well then you must be right. Thanks
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Mariusz » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:48 am

Malcolm wrote:For all interested people:

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.
̄
I think it is useful to write what Rinpoche said in His open webcast: His visions of Thogal are from His dreams because He has not enough time to do the retreat to accomplish them. So I don't know if the teachings from such visions are not different from the teachings which are given by other realized masters?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:22 pm

Basically you are casting suspicions on ChNN's attainments on Togal, Mariusz, even if in a more or less cloaked fashion.
You really can't help yourself, can you?
Some teachers limit themselves parroting what they read in books dude. OTOH, ChNN experience with Togal's visions is absolutely amazing.
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:23 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:For all interested people:

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.
̄
I think it is useful to write what Rinpoche said in His open webcast: His visions of Thogal are from His dreams because He has not enough time to do the retreat to accomplish them. So I don't know if the teachings from such visions are not different from the teachings which are given by other realized masters?



Tashi delek,

It is wellknown that some Dzogchen Masters do explain their experiences as the example for the practice of their students.

That seems to be again a different approach to what Dzogchen could be.
There are many roads leading to Rome, or one can get to Rome also inside the dreams. :applause:

By the way which retreat is not finished by Nakai Norbu?

But great Masters don' t need to finish everything if they are realised. That finishing does indicate something like working for something and we know Dzogchen is without preparation, effort, etc. so i guess that in this lineage there is not much preparations needed for the realisations like Thogal , DI, Trekchod etc.

It all comes from alone without efforts........

So doubtfull if great Masters do need special preparatory practices like you did suggest. :D

Mutsog Marro
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Mariusz » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:38 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:For all interested people:

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.
̄
I think it is useful to write what Rinpoche said in His open webcast: His visions of Thogal are from His dreams because He has not enough time to do the retreat to accomplish them. So I don't know if the teachings from such visions are not different from the teachings which are given by other realized masters?



Tashi delek,

It is wellknown that some Dzogchen Masters do explain their experiences as the example for the practice of their students.

That seems to be again a different approach to what Dzogchen could be.
There are many roads leading to Rome, or one can get to Rome also inside the dreams. :applause:

By the way which retreat is not finished by Nakai Norbu?

But great Masters don' t need to finish everything if they are realised. That finishing does indicate something like working for something and we know Dzogchen is without preparation, effort, etc. so i guess that in this lineage there is not much preparations needed for the realisations like Thogal , DI, Trekchod etc.

It all comes from alone without efforts........

So doubtfull if great Masters do need special preparatory practices like you did suggest. :D

Mutsog Marro
KY

Thank you. It was useful.
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